How to respond to Mahnbescheid

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I received a Mahnbescheid from Waldorf Frommer, for an accusation of file sharing that they claim it happened two years ago.

 

This Mahnbescheid consists of two Widerspruch forms, one gray and the other one pink (one with the address of the responsible court and one without). The pink one says "Schadenersatz au Unfall/Vorfall" and the gray one says a different (higher) amount under "gesamtsumme".

 

If I decide to pay, what amount I should pay pay, the "gesamtsumme" in the gray page or the one in the "Schadenersatz au Unfall/Vorfall" in the pink page. And it says here I need to send payment evidence to Waldorf Frommer, but how about the Widerspruch, which box I should tick?

 

And If I decide to object, will there be a period of negotiation? or do we go to court right after the receipt of the opposition?

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Judging from your post, medk, you do not really understand the system, so there is only one thing for you to do:

GET A LAWYER!

You will probably have to provide a "strafbewehrte Unterlassungserklärung", if you don't, they can (and will) take you to court and it will be very expensive. If you just sign theirs, you admit all sorts of things that you probably do not want to admit and it will be very expensive.

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10 minutes ago, gaijin said:

Judging from your post, medk, you do not really understand the system, so there is only one thing for you to do:

GET A LAWYER!

You will probably have to provide a "strafbewehrte Unterlassungserklärung", if you don't, they can (and will) take you to court and it will be very expensive. If you just sign theirs, you admit all sorts of things that you probably do not want to admit and it will be very expensive.

I got a lawyer when I received the first letter. But now after receiving the Mahnbescheid, the lawyer is asking for extra 250 euros. I feel I am wasting my money fighting this case. I prefer pay the expensive amount I received in the Mahnbescheid and forget about the problem once and for all. 

 

So paying is not enough, I need also to send "strafbewehrte Unterlassungserklärung" as well? Do you know from I can get it? how about the Widerspruch, should I send it as well?

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250 Euros is not really that much compared to what it might cost you if you mess up your Unterlassungserklärung or if by paying (for what exactly?) you implicitly admit guilt. Either get really knowledgeable yourself or let the lawyer handle it.

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5 minutes ago, gaijin said:

250 Euros is not really that much compared to what it might cost you if you mess up your Unterlassungserklärung or if by paying (for what exactly?) you implicitly admit guilt. Either get really knowledgeable yourself or let the lawyer handle it.

I already signed the cease-and-desist letter as part of the first warning, now I'm in Mahnbescheid stage.

 

It says here https://www.toytowngermany.com/wiki/Reminders,_court_orders,_writs in '2.2 that I need send the law firm or collection agency proof of payment and request written confirmation of payment. Before transferring this amount of money, I wanted to confirm whether this is enough.

 

PS. I'm not admitting any guilt, I just don't have the resource and the language to fight back. I also want to buy my peace of mind. 

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7 minutes ago, medk said:

I feel I am wasting my money fighting this case. I prefer pay the expensive amount I received in the Mahnbescheid and forget about the problem once and for all

You got good advice regarding getting a lawyer. If you wish to ignore it then by all means. Without seeing the letters you received, it is difficult to answer the questions you asked in your original post.

Use this to estimate how much you will end up paying the lawyer with and without a court hearing.

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Just wanted to add here because there are not many answers out there on the internet of people getting away with not paying.
I hope I am one of them.

Got my first letter in late 2016, followed by a few more letters because my wife didn't put the VPN on before downloading.
Total amount was about 3000+€.

I hired a lawyer for advice and he said we could try to get support from the government to pay his fees as my wife was in between jobs (we weren't married at the time) and she had a low income. We went to the local authorities but they were useless. They pretty much said its our fault even though there was no proof that we did something. We tried to fight it but ended up taking so long that we left this tactic and just paid the lawyer our selves.

As we were not planning to stay in Germany forever, the lawyer advised to wait and see what happens to take a risk that it might rack up the fines. He said he could negotiate them down to maybe 1,5k 2k, but I had decided I'm not paying those bastards who are wasting there tax money paid education on harassing reasonably law-abiding, low-income citizens.  

Eventually, 3 years went by with the occasional reminder with all kind of warnings and info. As I didn't speak the language, I was able to keep quite cool and just ignore it. My wife did speak it and was more worried.

 

Finally, four years later, I got a new job abroad and started the move. On the last day before we were out, we got a letter taking us to court. I told this to my lawyer and he said I need to send a wiedersprucht within 10 days. I got a random fax number online to add a bit of confusion and sent the wiedersprucht. My wife (whos name the letters came in) changed her surname to mine and we moved abroad. I made sure I didn't leave any trace to where I went and made sure to tell all authorities who needed to know, not to share any info with any third party. Also, I haven't opened anything official under my wife name since we arrived.

Good luck finding us you c..k suckers!

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11 hours ago, no more said:

Just wanted to add here because there are not many answers out there on the internet of people getting away with not paying.
I hope I am one of them.

Got my first letter in late 2016, followed by a few more letters because my wife didn't put the VPN on before downloading.
Total amount was about 3000+€.

I hired a lawyer for advice and he said we could try to get support from the government to pay his fees as my wife was in between jobs (we weren't married at the time) and she had a low income. We went to the local authorities but they were useless. They pretty much said its our fault even though there was no proof that we did something. We tried to fight it but ended up taking so long that we left this tactic and just paid the lawyer our selves.

As we were not planning to stay in Germany forever, the lawyer advised to wait and see what happens to take a risk that it might rack up the fines. He said he could negotiate them down to maybe 1,5k 2k, but I had decided I'm not paying those bastards who are wasting there tax money paid education on harassing reasonably law-abiding, low-income citizens.  

Eventually, 3 years went by with the occasional reminder with all kind of warnings and info. As I didn't speak the language, I was able to keep quite cool and just ignore it. My wife did speak it and was more worried.

 

Finally, four years later, I got a new job abroad and started the move. On the last day before we were out, we got a letter taking us to court. I told this to my lawyer and he said I need to send a wiedersprucht within 10 days. I got a random fax number online to add a bit of confusion and sent the wiedersprucht. My wife (whos name the letters came in) changed her surname to mine and we moved abroad. I made sure I didn't leave any trace to where I went and made sure to tell all authorities who needed to know, not to share any info with any third party. Also, I haven't opened anything official under my wife name since we arrived.

Good luck finding us you c..k suckers!

Cool story bro. Also useful for people that actually plan to stay in Germany. In case you run up a debt in your new country of residence, will you find another country to move to?

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Frommer just uses random addresses. The moment you reply, especially if you have a foreign name, they know that you are actually a resident at that address. About the letter,s first ignore all the letters, and then,  if it comes, send the  wiedersprucht.

 

After that, they have to take you to court, and if you live in a shared apartment (WG) there are many judgments that say the main internet person is not responsible. Just to be on the safe side, get people who stay in your apartment to sign a paper saying that they are sharing the apartment with you and  are using your internet. 

Also, you are in trouble only if you use P2P. The law on streaming is still unclear and it is far more difficult to prove.

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2 hours ago, solomongrundy said:

they know that you are actually a resident at that address.

They know you receive post at that address. You could be resident elsewhere. ;)

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8 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

They know you receive post at that address. You could be resident elsewhere. ;)

 

WF use 3rd party specialists who scan p2p clients and record IP addresses that are downloading illegally.  They are then legally allowed to ask your internet provider to disclose info on that IP address.  This could in theory also happen with illegal streaming,  but it is trickier to enforce as IP addresses are not stored for long.

 

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2 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

WF use 3rd party specialists who scan p2p clients and record IP addresses that are downloading illegally.  They are then legally allowed to ask your internet provider to disclose info on that IP address.  This could in theory also happen with illegal streaming,  but it is trickier to enforce as IP addresses are not stored for long.

Does using a VPN avoid this possibility entirely?

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On 9/16/2020, 1:10:33, lunaCH said:

Does using a VPN avoid this possibility entirely?

 

Pretty much. I don't use torrenting much these days thanks to Netflix, iPlayer & Co, but in the past, if my IP address was intercepted I just got an email from my VPN provider telling me that they received a complaint. Only the VPN provider knew who I was and they wouldn't share that information.

A seedbox is even safer to use. You rent computing time an storage space in a server somewhere and that's where all the torrenting is happening, not in your computer. Some of these services com with Plex include to stream media from it, and you can always download your files from the server to your own computer, which can't be monitored by a third party. Seedboxes are more expensive than plain VPN.

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