Brexit, New residence permits

231 posts in this topic

The Munich KVR website claims that in week 49 this year they will be sending every UK citizen living in their area a letter with a form to fill in. Week 49 began last Sunday the 30th November, anyone received it yet???

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Quick one - does anyone understand why, once registered the Stadt-websites state that after Jan 2021 British Citizens need a "Fiktionsbescheinigung für dringende Reisen" from the Ausländeramt in order to leave and re-enter Germany.  Can't you just leave and re-enter on your passport?

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I'm not sure demanding stuff under Article 50 of a withdrawal agreement that the British government itself is openly contravening will get you very far.

 

The British government has done British citizens in the EU who are dependent upon the terms of the WA absolutely no favours at all by breaking it less than a year after it was signed.

 

On a side note, as a Brandenburg resident and EU citizen I now see why my own fully and correctly submitted application for German citizenship has been sitting on the to-do pile for almost two years now as the case workers spend all their time on Brexit files. Brits are getting priority over EU citizens. I began the process of naturalisation almost three years ago but with delays getting initial appointments and then my German certificate being rejected because it was from a private school in Berlin and then needing to sit the test in a Brandenburg VHS to be sure it was accepted it has dragged on but the last two years is mostly down to Brexit.

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If you understand French I can send you 5 pages of A4 describing in detail the roller-coaster I have had with the French authorities over the last three years still to no avail. It is beyond pathetic. No, it is beyond all description. The system is not working. And actually, no-one in the corridors of administration wants to know. Or is capable of doing better. That is my impression anyhow.

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8 hours ago, PCarnold said:

Quick one - does anyone understand why, once registered the Stadt-websites state that after Jan 2021 British Citizens need a "Fiktionsbescheinigung für dringende Reisen" from the Ausländeramt in order to leave and re-enter Germany.  Can't you just leave and re-enter on your passport?

 

A Fiktionsbescheinigung is useless. You can only use it in Germany. It is not accepted by other EU27 border guards if your return leg back to Schengen area and Germany is via a neighbouring EU country. Why would a French speaking border guard understand what a Fiktionsbescheinigung is?

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31 minutes ago, paulwork said:

Why would a French speaking border guard understand what a Fiktionsbescheinigung is?

Why would he need to if you have a passport?

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32 minutes ago, paulwork said:

 

A Fiktionsbescheinigung is useless.

 

No, it is not.

 

32 minutes ago, paulwork said:

 

You can only use it in Germany.

 

WRONG, AGAIN!

 

32 minutes ago, paulwork said:

It is not accepted by other EU27 border guards if your return leg back to Schengen area and Germany is via a neighbouring EU country.

 

Yes, it is.

 

32 minutes ago, paulwork said:

Why would a French speaking border guard understand what a Fiktionsbescheinigung is?

 

Because it has been registered in the system to which all border guards have access.

 

Third country nationals from countries that require a Schengen Visa have been using FBs for years to re-enter the Schengen Area.

 

Stop spreading moronovirus!

 

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7 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

No, it is not.

 

 

WRONG, AGAIN!

 

 

Yes, it is.

 

 

Because it has been registered in the system to which all border guards have access.

 

Third country nationals from countries that require a Schengen Visa have been using FBs for years to re-enter the Schengen Area.

 

Stop spreading moronovirus!

 

There is no "system". There are only fragmented un-interfaced systems - EES, VIS, ETIAS, Eurodac, SIS and ECRIS-TCN, to name but a few.

 

And none of them recognize a "fictive" document as having any legal standing for immigration that would hold up in a court of law. That's why I pay approx €220 a pop to check all the vague claims of "comfort" made by the DE govt in the last few weeks. FB is only recognised in the Bundesgebiet. 26 other EU countries which may be your first Schengen port of call, or stopover, before travelling onward to your home in DE are NOT part of the Bundesgebiet - in case there was ever any doubt.

 

If you can name 1 instance of a TCN that successfully re-entered Schengen via a non-German border point WITHOUT HINDRANCE solely by presenting a fictive Fiktionsbescheinigung and ID to then travel onwards to Germany, please substantiate this.

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8 hours ago, paulwork said:

If you can name 1 instance of a TCN that successfully re-entered Schengen via a non-German border point WITHOUT HINDRANCE solely by presenting a fictive Fiktionsbescheinigung and ID to then travel onwards to Germany, please substantiate this.

 

15 hours ago, engelchen said:

Third country nationals from countries that require a Schengen Visa have been using FBs for years to re-enter the Schengen Area.

 

Am I missing something here? the original question, which I would like to reiterate,  was why do you need this Fb document if I use my British passport? Would a French border guard refuse me entry to the Schengen area with or without an Fb when transiting to my residence in Germany? How would they know I was a resident in Germany rather than a tourist and if they did know from some database or other then why would they need further proof?

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7 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

 

Am I missing something here? the original question, which I would like to reiterate,  was why do you need this Fb document if I use my British passport? Would a French border guard refuse me entry to the Schengen area with or without an Fb when transiting to my residence in Germany? How would they know I was a resident in Germany rather than a tourist and if they did know from some database or other then why would they need further proof?

 

Only guessing.  But without one, a stroppy border person could ask you for proof of health insurance, sufficient funds, proof of return ticket, etc.   

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Yup, they can ask you your purpose and length of stay, as you will be a TCN :)

 

Was just on the Frankfurt ABH website to find out about getting a new residence card on the renewal of my passport, and I can across the page for Brits: https://frankfurt.de/service-und-rathaus/verwaltung/aemter-und-institutionen/ordnungsamt/auslaenderbehoerde/aktuell-brexit---aktuelle-informationen

 

It's a little confusing, but it seems Frankfurt is quite easy (it's possible Frankfurt will just assume you are staying, and send you the certificate if you're registered, though in some places they say you just have to let them know you're staying... weird). They also say German language skills are not required... lucky you. Had I written the information, I would have added a note saying 'German language skills are not required, but we are disappointed (though not at all surprised)'. I'd have added an eye-roll emoji, but I don't think there is one in TT.

 

They have redesigned their city resources, and it seems they've now added English pages too, which is great for newbies. I'm pleasantly surprised.

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22 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Am I missing something here? the original question, which I would like to reiterate,  was why do you need this Fb document if I use my British passport? Would a French border guard refuse me entry to the Schengen area with or without an Fb when transiting to my residence in Germany? How would they know I was a resident in Germany rather than a tourist and if they did know from some database or other then why would they need further proof?

Seeing as we don't get to use the passport gates and fast lanes anymore, they may know because they ask you. If you say "because I live in Germany" and he takes some objection to your face then maybe he decides you need to be checked out. OTOH if you lie and say "holiday" then you'll probably get waved in, because we don't need visas for Schengen (I hope that's right, I thought that was decided some time ago).

 

My letter from Stuttgart didn't mention any of this. Probably the vast majority of Brits in Germany have no idea about it too, so are they really going to start enforcing it for UK citizens from 1st Jan?

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Even if you say you are coming for a holiday, they can still ask questions and ask for proof of funds, travel insurance before stamping your passport.  I can look pretty rough when travelling.

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3 minutes ago, Dembo said:

Seeing as we don't get to use the passport gates and fast lanes anymore, they may know because they ask you. If you say "because I live in Germany" and he takes some objection to your face then maybe he decides you need to be checked out. OTOH if you lie and say "holiday" then you'll probably get waved in, because we don't need visas for Schengen (I hope that's right, I thought that was decided some time ago).

 

My letter from Stuttgart didn't mention any of this. Probably the vast majority of Brits in Germany have no idea about it too, so are they really going to start enforcing it for UK citizens from 1st Jan?

 

 

In Brussels airport, if you transition from non-Schengen terminal to Schengen terminal, you have to go through manual passport control and even with an EEA passport I was always asked multiple questions by the Belgian border force, about where had I flown in from, where I was going, why was I going there and for how long, why was I living in Germany, etc.

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17 hours ago, paulwork said:

A Fiktionsbescheinigung is useless. You can only use it in Germany. It is not accepted by other EU27 border guards if your return leg back to Schengen area and Germany is via a neighbouring EU country. 

That was certainly the case with my six month FB issued in August of 2019 to bridge the gap between when my residency permit was approved locally and when I received my Aufenthaltstitel from Berlin, which took another three months.  My FB restricted me to remaining in DE.  I wasn't even supposed to walk ten minutes away from home to neighboring Switzerland.  But I would hope that any Brit currently residing in DE who gets one now would have less restrictive terms than I did as a TCN receiving my initial one year residency permit.  The situations are not equivalent.

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4 minutes ago, Mackle said:

In Brussels airport, if you transition from non-Schengen terminal to Schengen terminal, you have to go through manual passport control and even with an EEA passport I was always asked multiple questions by the Belgian border force, about where had I flown in from, where I was going, why was I going there and for how long, why was I living in Germany, etc.

Really? Never been to Brussels, but I've used the passport machines several times in Amsterdam and Frankfurt when doing the same. And when there aren't machines (e.g. Stuttgart, Schönenfeld) I don't think I've ever been asked why I was there.

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Just now, Dembo said:

Really? Never been to Brussels, but I've used the passport machines several times in Amsterdam and Frankfurt when doing the same. And when there aren't machines (e.g. Stuttgart, Schönenfeld) I don't think I've ever been asked why I was there.

 

When going from Non-schengen to Schengen, yes. But when going from Schengen to non-Schengen then it was eGates.

 

I used to fly back to London a lot to see my then-girlfriend, and at the time Lufthansa granted status for 32 segments. Cost of flying to LRH via BRU with SN was pretty similar to going direct with LH, so I was transiting through BRU once a week on a regular basis to build up the segments.  So it wasn't a once off, I was asked questions every single time I returned to Germany

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I live in Freising area and haven't yet received a letter from the local authorities.

 

This could be helpful - the info going for british citizens:

 

https://www.stmi.bayern.de/med/aktuell/archiv/2019/190131brexit/index.php

 

Ab dem 1. Januar 2021 haben Personen, die bis dahin zum Aufenthalt oder zum Arbeiten in Deutschland berechtigt waren und von diesem Recht Gebrauch gemacht hatten, im Wesentlichen dieselben Rechte wie vor dem Austritt. Dieses neue Aufenthaltsrecht ergibt sich unmittelbar aus dem Austrittsabkommen und besteht bereits kraft Gesetzes. Ergänzend zum Austrittsabkommen gilt das Gesetz zur aktuellen Anpassung des Freizügigkeitsgesetzes/EU und weiterer Vorschriften an das Unionsrecht, das am 24. November 2020 in Kraft getreten ist und weitere konkretisierende Regelungen enthält. Britische Staatsangehörige haben danach ihren Aufenthalt bis zum 30. Juni 2021 bei der jeweils zuständigen örtlichen Ausländerbehörde anzuzeigen. Eine Anmeldung beim Einwohnermeldeamt genügt hierfür nicht. Zum Nachweis ihres Aufenthaltsrechts stellen die Ausländerbehörden britischen Staatsangehörigen und ihren Familienangehörigen eine Bescheinigung (sog. Aufenthaltsdokument-GB) aus.

 

This could also be helpful - the info going out to local employers:

 

https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/downloads/DE/veroeffentlichungen/themen/migration/brexit-informationen-arbeitgeber.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1

 

Das Vereinigte Königreich ist am 1. Februar 2020 aus der Europäischen Union ausgetreten. In diesem Zusammenhang wurde zwischen der EU und dem Vereinigten Königreich das sogenannte Austrittsabkommen geschlossen, das seitdem wirksam und in Kraft getreten ist. Es gilt in der gesamten EU, also auch in Deutschland.

 

Für die Zeit nach dem Austritt des Vereinigten Königreichs aus der EU wurde ein Übergangszeitraum festgelegt, der am 31. Dezember 2020 endet. Während dieses Übergangszeitraums blieb aufenthaltsrechtlich zunächst alles beim Alten. Erst nach dem Ende des Übergangszeitraums ändert sich die Rechtslage.

 

Wenn Ihre Arbeitnehmerin oder Ihr Arbeitnehmer unter das Austrittsabkommen fällt, ist er oder sie auch ohne entsprechendes Dokument berechtigt, bei Ihnen zu arbeiten. Wenn Sie wissen, dass Ihre Arbeitnehmerin oder Ihr Arbeitnehmer berechtigt ist, müssen Sie nichts weiter unternehmen.

 

Dies gilt vor allem dann, wenn

 

 britische Staatsangehörige oder

 Familienangehörige britischer Staatsangehöriger mit Aufenthaltskarte oder Daueraufenthaltskarte

 

bereits vor dem 31. Dezember 2020 bei Ihnen legal gearbeitet haben. Sie können dann, ohne sich weitere Dokumente vorlegen zu lassen, diese Arbeitnehmerinnen und Arbeitnehmer auch danach einfach weiter beschäftigen. Sie müssen keine Dokumente kopieren oder scannen oder zu Ihren Lohnunterlagen nehmen.

 

Bis zum 30. Juni 2021 können Sie der Aussage britischer Staatsangehöriger, ein Aufenthaltsrecht nach dem Austrittsabkommen zu haben, vertrauen. Dies ist zumindest immer dann der Fall, wenn die Betroffenen am 31. Dezember 2020 in Deutschland gewohnt haben.

 

Danach sollten Sie verlangen, dass diese Rechtsstellung nachgewiesen wird – berücksichtigen Sie bei Fristsetzungen gegenüber Ihren britischen Mitarbeiterinnen und Mitarbeitern aber bitte auch, dass sie sich bis zum 30. Juni 2021 Zeit lassen durften, den Aufenthalt bei der Ausländerbehörde anzuzeigen, und dass es dann etwas dauern kann, bis dort ein Termin wahrgenommen werden konnte und das Aufenthaltsdokument erstellt ist. Hat Ihre Mitarbeiterin oder Ihr Mitarbeiter den Nachweis dann vorgelegt, müssen Sie ihn nicht scannen, kopieren oder zu den Lohnunterlagen nehmen. Ebenso müssen Sie der Ausländerbehörde keine Mitteilung über eine spätere Beendigung des Arbeitsverhältnisses machen. Ein Vermerk in den Lohnunterlagen, dass ein Status nach dem Austrittsabkommen besteht, ist sicherlich sinnvoll, aber nicht gesetzlich vorgeschrieben.

 

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