Brexit, New residence permits

253 posts in this topic

All of this sounds like the wrong thing. someone said in the other thread the law was only passed last week, so if you applied in March 2019 they surely put you in the "we don't know what the **** to do with you" pile along with the dregs.

 

 

 

 

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@Dembo it seems to be a new form uploaded on to the Berlin website.

 

I guess it *could* be for Briton's who arrive after the transition period, but would have expected them to use the normal third country national forms instead.

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1 hour ago, Mackle said:

 

The confusing thing with this is that fairly recently the organisation that had been in consultation with Axel Dittman (British in Germany e.V), had been asking people to report instances of being asked to fill out the aufenthaltserlaubnis form by their local ABH, as the form was not suitable for use by those already in-country before the end of the year, and that it asked for details which under a declaratory system were not required.

 

If the system is constitutive in practice, then why not just call it that right from the outset rather than have people like Axel Dittman say being declaratory means nobody will have to leave as a result of Brexit?  And, if it is constitutive in practice, then why need to introduce new specific forms that ask for the same detail in the existing aufenthaltserlaubnis form, since that form already works?

 

What exactly is your objection? Don't you think that the German authorities have not only a right, but also a responsibility to verify that the info that is given is correct? Especially considering all the Brits who don't actually live in Germany, but registered an address here in order to obtain rights under the WA?

 

As an example (I'm not accusing you of anything, but these discussions only make sense with concrete examples), you used to live in Germany. You are now living in Dubai. If you quit your job in Germany and moved to Dubai for a new job, you are not entitled to submit your old German rental contract and paystubs to obtain a permit based on the fact that you used to live here because you are not currently taking advantage of your treaty rights. 

 

On the other hand, the OP's husband has been living here for 20 years and IIRC is also retired. His Meldebescheinigung, health insurance, and pension statement prove that he meets one of the Freedom of Movement categories. If he includes a copy of his wife's new German Personalausweis and a copy of their marriage certificate, he also has a right to a permit under national rules. In this case the authorities can very easily verify that the OP's husband has a right to live here and issue him one of the new permits for British citizens. Under certain circumstances he could also obtain an NE under the AufenthG (which would be a good idea if he ever wanted to leave for a longer period of time and not loose his right to live here independent of his wife).

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5 hours ago, Feierabend said:

So, so much for "just make sure you are properly  registered and everything will be easy-peasy ..."

 

OH has just received instructions from LDS to apply for the Aufenthaltserlaubnis.

This consists of a 12 page form and the requirement to provide copies of nine documents;

passport, marriage certs, spouse's passport, full recent Meldebescheinigung, up to date photo; health insurance certificate, pension record, statement of income, any social security benefits, Europöisches Führungszeugnis (criminal record cert.)

Then he has to book an appointment to give signatures and fingerprints.

(We've been registered here for over 20 years.)

I don't see this as an issue. I had to provide all this as a non EU citizen. To make matters worse, it took almost a year to get my Aufenthaltserlaubnis in Frankfurt. During this time I could not travel out of the country (pre-covid). 

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18 minutes ago, engelchen said:

 

What exactly is your objection? Don't you think that the German authorities have not only a right, but also a responsibility to verify that the info that is given is correct? Especially considering all the Brits who don't actually live in Germany, but registered an address here in order to obtain rights under the WA?

 

It is that the government are calling it a declaratory system,  yet the forms on that website and the information that they are asking for is in line with a constitutive application system instead.

 

I agree that they have the right to introduce whatever system they want, but if it is a constitutive system then just call it that. Why claim that a system is declaratory when it is not?

 

Axel Dittman hailed the draft law as making it easier for people to stay, and Berlin have even introduced a new form for it - but the details being asked for match what the existing aufenhaltserlaubnis form requires, so why not use the existing form (which is a known quantity to the staff processing it).  I don't get why Dittman is saying that introducing a new form that is the same as an existing form in terms of documentation needed to supply, makes it easier for people to stay rather than using the existing form.

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22 minutes ago, Mackle said:

@Dembo it seems to be a new form uploaded on to the Berlin website.

 

I guess it *could* be for Briton's who arrive after the transition period, but would have expected them to use the normal third country national forms instead.

 

Here's the Stuttgart one:

https://www.stuttgart.de/vv/leistungen/brexit-information-der-auslaenderbehoerde-stuttgart.php

 

It says it's for people who are here before 31st December and is specific for British citizens - not the general riff raff. Having done the first bit, I'm meant to get a Bescheinigung that allows me to live and work here (don't know how long that's meant to apply), and then an appointment to get the Aufenhaltsdokument-GB (sounds like a special one for us). I suppose they might ask for 50 different bits of documentation at that point, but this sounds overall a different process. Which fits in with what we were told about being a special case and not being treated like third country nationals. 

 

Maybe you should all move to Stuttgart ;-)

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8 minutes ago, Dembo said:

 

Here's the Stuttgart one:

https://www.stuttgart.de/vv/leistungen/brexit-information-der-auslaenderbehoerde-stuttgart.php

 

It says it's for people who are here before 31st December and is specific for British citizens - not the general riff raff. Having done the first bit, I'm meant to get a Bescheinigung that allows me to live and work here (don't know how long that's meant to apply), and then an appointment to get the Aufenhaltsdokument-GB (sounds like a special one for us). I suppose they might ask for 50 different bits of documentation at that point, but this sounds overall a different process. Which fits in with what we were told about being a special case and not being treated like third country nationals. 

 

Maybe you should all move to Stuttgart ;-)

 

Interesting. The form this links to is totally different from the Berlin form.

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4 hours ago, HEM said:

I'm in Schleswig-Holstein: back in March 2019 the locale Ausländeramt sent me a 4-page Antrag auf Erteilung eines Aufenthaltstitels - Aufenhaltsgesetz (AufenthG) which I completed & returned & received a letter dated 2. April 2019 with:

 

AUS-HEM.jpg

 

Since then its been quiet.  I carry a copy of this document with me but have never been asked for it (have not travelled outside DE since then due to Corona).

Sheffield? The Germans might be waiting to find out if you are Wednesday or United, HEM!

😂

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I was simply providing follow up to my first post in this thread.

 

I have written to BiG as was suggested above. 

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55 minutes ago, Feierabend said:

I was simply providing follow up to my first post in this thread.

 

I have written to BiG as was suggested above. 

 

Why?

 

What exactly do you find objectionable? Don't you think tht the German authorities have not only a right, but also a responsibility to verify the info that is given? Especially given all the Brits who don't actually live in Germany, but registered an address here in order to obtain rights under the WA?

 

How would you prefer the authorities handle your husband's situation?

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11 minutes ago, engelchen said:

 

Why?

 

What exactly do you find objectionable? Don't you think tht the German authorities have not only a right, but also a responsibility to verify the info that is given? Especially given all the Brits who don't actually live in Germany, but registered an address here in order to obtain rights under the WA?

 

 

School needing to write a letter. How does this impact whether you can stay or not?

 

Last salary slip not enough?

 

Should i go on?

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57 minutes ago, engelchen said:

Why?

 

Last week (or possibly the week before) BiG asked for people to contact them if they had been asked to fill out the existing forms, because in their words, the aufenthaltserlaubnis form was not suitable for use under the new law's declaratory system, and this Berlin form is basically getting the same information as that form. As BiG works with both the British Consulate and people like Axel Dittman, there is no harm is raising it, after all it is inline with a recent request of theirs?

 

Especially when you compare the Berlin form to the Stuttgart form  that was linked on here earlier this evening. The Stuttgart form could probably be filled out in five minutes, and certainly did not look like part of a constitutive system application's application form.  

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englechen, I do not know why you are adopting this inquisitory tone.

 

I have nowhere said I find the request objectionable. There is no problem supplying documents. 

I am merely doing my Toytownly duty of updating my original post which asked

Hello, just wondering if  anyone has yet had any instructions for applying for the new permit from Brandenburg ...

 

Forgive me for not being totally overjoyed.

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21 minutes ago, Feierabend said:

I do not know why you are adopting this inquisitory tone.

 

Can someone please tell me that I am not the only one thinking about a famous Monty Python sketch after reading this particular line?

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6 minutes ago, Mackle said:

 

Can someone please tell me that I am not the only one thinking about a famous Monty Python sketch after reading this particular line?

 

Oh blow,  I didn't know I had a scriptwriting talent!

Which sketch?!

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24 minutes ago, Feierabend said:

englechen, I do not know why you are adopting this inquisitory tone.

 

Because I really don't understand why Mackle keeps whining and I don't think that your husband's rights are being violated.

 

24 minutes ago, Feierabend said:

Forgive me for not being totally overjoyed.

 

What were you expecting? The UK opted to leave the EU. I think it was expected that some paperwork would be involved.

 

You may have been here for 20 years, however, you don't have a file at the ABH. The ABH also does not have access to the info from the Finanzamt nor the DRV (Datenschutz). If your husband wants to be stubborn he can choose not to provide all the documents (he will need to provide some) that they requested and insist on his permit.  It is open to debate whether or not they could insist that you provide your Personalausweis and marriage certificate. He only needs to demonstrate the he has fulfilled the requirements of one of the Freedom of Movement categories. On the other hand, trying to argue a point of law with the authorities only really works if you can speak German well enough to actually argue the point of law.

 

Your husband can also choose not to fill out the form and submit a formlose Antrag. The question is whether your husband wants to get into a fight with the authorities over this.

 

At the end of the day unless your husband is a mafia boss, terrorist, axe murderer, or poses some other danger to the public, the authorities cannot refuse your husband a permit (and they know it). I think it'll be easier than (the old school method of) getting papers for your new car.

 

Note: When I applied for my NE the ABH asked for a document that I decided I was not going to give them because they didn't need it (I was pissed off my Sachbearbeiterin and wanted to make a point). I quite calmly told her she didn't need because I had provided other documents that served the same purpose. I had to leave her office at least 3 times that day so that she could check with someone else.

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7 minutes ago, engelchen said:

 

Because I really don't understand why Mackle keeps whining and I don't think that your husband's rights are being violated.

 

Because as I have said, ever since the draft law was published it was said that the system would be declaratory. That particular Berlin form appears to be an application form for a constitutive system - so why tell people that the system would be declaratory and would avoid uncertainty (I believe that was what Axel Dittman basically said, possibly to the Local?) , but then have an implementation that turns it in to a constitutive system instead?  Or, perhaps I can ask you another way - you mentioned earlier that Germany had a responsibility to verify that every applicant was genuinely 100% compliant with FoM, so surely if you want to manually verify each applicant that then the law should have been written as a constitutive system, such as in France?

 

By comparison, have you seen the Stuttgart form? Now that form totally looks in the spirit of what Axel Dittman said when the draft laws were published. 

 

 

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Fur Brits already in DE before Brexit, who have lived here 5+ years, they are entitled to a declaratory daueraufenthaltserlaubnis with *special text* printed on it, that you fall under article 50 legal protections. Don't let them fob you off. Demand that the text is printed un your card.

 

You'll need to supply passport, biometric photo, fee, and proof of living in country 5+ yrs. This can be employer statement, electricity bills etc. 

 

If they are asking for more forms than that - payslips, B1 test, life in germany test, tell them Germans in UK only need to provide ID card, proof of 5+ yrs residence and no fee (it was cost-free for them). 

 

Take a print out of the minutes of the bundeatag where they said they wanted it to be unburokratisch as possible. And also quote Dittmann. Also take print outs of the EU law paragraphs on accepted proofs. 

 

Don't put up with them trying to treat you like any other 3rd country national requiring same forms. Article 50 means both eligible EU27 in UK and Brits in EU27 are given special treatments and prutections not accessible to other 3rd country nationals in EU, or non-Brits in UK.

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