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8 minutes ago, Mackle said:

 

I was reading an opinion piece yesterday that said certain types of birth control pill raise the risk of blood clots, and the author was surprised that it did not seem that anyone was looking in to a possible contraindication between "the pill" and the AV vaccine. 

There is big different between clots caused by the pill and the ones that may be caused by AZ vaccine. The pill mainly causes DVTs (deep vein thrombosis) and less often PE (pulmonary embolism). For the most part (there's exceptions of course) both have recognisable symptoms and are treatable with a relatively low mortality rate. What AZ vaccine may cause is a cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, which has a much higher mortality rate. Mortality rate is lower with early treatment. However early diagnosis is also real hard. Additionally, the most common symptom is an acute headache. Headaches are common in the population, and chances are a young female will be brushed off by most doctors if she complains of a headache.

 

Here is an article explaining the difference in risk. https://www.pharmazeutische-zeitung.de/antibabypille-versus-astra-zeneca-impfung-124522/

 

I think the mechanism of clotting is hypothesised to be different. With AZ it is thought to be more related to an immune reaction. But who knows if there is an additive risk with the pill. What about women taking hormone replacement therapy? So many unknowns... 

 

My appointment was automatically cancelled as the Impfzentrum in my area just has AZ and nothing else. 

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1 hour ago, theGman said:

I agree with Murphaph, the Julian Röpcke comparison is not really valid. Covid is not a choice, the AZ jab is. If there were no other alternatives, then sure, it's a no brainer, but there are alternatives. It would mean we will all have to wait longer but AZ can in principle be avoided. 9 out of 2.7million is a horrifically small number, but how many of those 2.7million are in the AZ risk group (female under 55?)? Not many I guess.

I personally still "feel" that for now the AZ risk is "acceptable". Everything we do in life has small risks...driving, swimming, drinking, other vaccines? I can't help but feel that, in a way, the public is being fed too much information about this, without the ability to process what these numbers mean in the context of normal life. Anyhow, seems AZ in Germany is dying now. Hopefully delivery of the other vaccines starts ramping up very soon and in the meantime AZ can just be offered to those who want it.

Also, do the other vaccines really have no indications of similar risks?

There have been a handful of thrombotic events with the mRNA vaccines but AFAIK none fatal and not above the expected background amount in the unvaccinated population. 

 

I also feel that as a 42 yo man, if I was offered the AZ jab right now I would take it. If I was female I think I might not though. I understand that more younger women than men have been vaccinated because more women work in the higher risk occupations that are eligible for early vaccination (healthcare, teaching primarily) but still, when virtually every new case of possible VIPIT is a woman you would really have to think twice about it.

 

I would have liked to see a voluntary AZ scheme, whereby younger (presumably mostly men) could waive any claim against the state and be vaccinated with AZ if they so choose. I think one of the Canadian provinces may have done this but it might just slow the whole process down even further and not be worth it at a public health level. idk.

 

I understand the temptation to kind of brush over these cases to prevent widespread resistance to vaccination setting in but a study in Canada showed that although confidence in AZ has taken a battering, it remains high in the other vaccines. If stuff was brushed over there is the risk that all vaccines will be treated with equally high levels of suspicion, which would be really bad news. I don't envy the public health people charged with making these decisions.

 

The EMA even tried to brush over the rare cerebral vein clots and lump them in with all forms of thromboses. I found that at the time to be a bit cheeky because they already knew that the concern was specifically about these rare cases in younger people, not in clots of all types in all age groups. They were clearly trying to maintain confidence in the AZ vaccine but in hindsight as more cases have emerged, may have overstepped the mark.

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34 minutes ago, Mackle said:

 

I was reading an opinion piece yesterday that said certain types of birth control pill raise the risk of blood clots, and the author was surprised that it did not seem that anyone was looking in to a possible contraindication between "the pill" and the AV vaccine. 

I would be surprised if that possibility is not being actively investigated tbh.

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35 minutes ago, Narjiz said:

 What AZ vaccine may cause is a cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, which has a much higher mortality rate. Mortality rate is lower with early treatment. However early diagnosis is also real hard. Additionally, the most common symptom is an acute headache. Headaches are common in the population, and chances are a young female will be brushed off by most doctors if she complains of a headache.

And if hundreds of thousands start visiting doctors because of a headache a couple of weeks after getting the vaccine, that's a huge burden for the health system. If doctors take it seriously and start sending them for scans - well that obviously won't be possible. Even if the risk is tiny the consequences of the anxiety could be much bigger. And anxiety can be a cause of headaches.

 

Logically I know I shouldn't worry if I were offered the AZ vaccine. But I won't be unhappy to be given a different one. Of course similar problems could yet arise with the other vaccines.

 

 

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The wife received the invitation letter yesterday and now Pfizer is booked for end of may and beginning of July.   The reason is because she has asthma.  When I saw that the data came from the doctor practices I told her to go and get a new inhaler just to ping the system, and now some weeks later the letter is here.

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1 hour ago, Narjiz said:

With AZ it is thought to be more related to an immune reaction

 

Wasn't there something initially said about people with allergies, in that they should not be having the vaccine? Or was that not for AV?

 

Were the AV clinical trials mostly conducted in the UK? Am wondering if there may be treatments that are in common use in continental Europe but not in the UK?

 

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I can't see another u turn happening. I don't think AZ will be being used in DE now for younger people.

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23 minutes ago, Mackle said:

Wasn't there something initially said about people with allergies, in that they should not be having the vaccine? Or was that not for AV?

 

Off the top of my head, that was Pfizer. My mum was advised to get AZ for that reason. Whereas my Dad got Pfizer.

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It seems like wait and see at the moment. From an articles in the Berliner Morgenpost:

Die Stiko soll zudem bis Ende April eine Empfehlung dazu abgeben. Offen ist zum Beispiel auch noch, ob man einen anderen Impfstoff für die Zweitimpfung nehmen kann, ohne die Wirksamkeit der Impfung zu verringern. Die EU-Arzneimittelbehörde EMA kündigte an, dass auch sie – voraussichtlich bis zum 9. April – ihre Impfempfehlung überarbeiten werde.

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1 hour ago, john g. said:

By the way, does anyone know if you can have the first jab with company A’s vaccine and the second one with company B’s?

 

No, cannot.

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I wonder if mistakes will be made and somebody gets the wrong second jab... shit happens..

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7 minutes ago, john g. said:

I wonder if mistakes will be made and somebody gets the wrong second jab... shit happens..

 

If I remember correctly that already happened.

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So, these self declaration test forms are a joke. I always wondered how it would work in reality. If there would be tests with dates stamped on for example, that you take with you to prove the test was taken the same day.

 

but no. In this state at least it just a pdf you print and sign, saying you’ve taken a test that day and you are negative.

 

so it’s entirely done on trust. Doesn’t fill me with confidence that everyone in the (for eg) restaurant hasn’t lied and has forms signed for every day of the week. Joke.

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On 3/29/2021, 10:17:43, Fritsen said:

Those kinds of gatekeeping laws are one of the most infuriating aspects of Germany.

There are good reasons why injections should be given with a physician on standby at least. My FiL once got a penicillin injection in a pharmacy in Brazil and collapsed due to an allergic reaction. I personally wouldn´t even drink soy mild without a doctor nearby (because I´m allergic):lol:

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On 3/29/2021, 11:37:09, MikeMelga said:

Are all Apotheke the same in Germany?

Of course not but there still has to be a pharmacist present as long as the pharmacy is open.

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23 hours ago, Dembo said:

It's also assuming AZ is the only vaccine in town. The comparison shouldn't be the risk of the AZ vaccine vs. not being vaccinated at all but the risk of having AZ now vs. waiting a bit longer for another vaccine.

 

 

Exactly. And this risk assessment depends on your personal circumstances. Some are living like hermits and can easily avoid contacts whereas e.g. teachers or bus drivers can´t. If I was a younger woman that would heavily influence my decision making.

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22 hours ago, Mackle said:

 

I was reading an opinion piece yesterday that said certain types of birth control pill raise the risk of blood clots, and the author was surprised that it did not seem that anyone was looking in to a possible contraindication between "the pill" and the AV vaccine. 

That´s a very confusing issue. In Germany almost exclusively women of childbearing age have developed sinus vein thromboses whereas in the UK all 8 cases reported were men. Puzzling!

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