8,402 posts in this topic

25 minutes ago, BethAnnBitt said:

According to today's Südkurier a growing number of firms, such as Deutsche Telekom and Allianz, ... are prepared to take matters into their own hands and have their company doctors start giving vaccinations to their employees, as only 3.5/10.4 M delivered doses have been used while the economy suffers.  Great idea, but how's that supposed to work if they start giving their young employees doses before 65+ age retirees get it?  I guess they are really just trying to make a statement to the government to get its shit in order.  😏

 

It's absurd that during a global pandemic + vaccination backlog, they won't allow pharmacists and nurses to administer vaccines. Pray we never experience a more serious pandemic where such draconian gatekeeping bureaucracy would be devastatingly fatal (not that thousands aren't currently dying each month, while the German government just sits on vaccines).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Fritsen said:

 

It's absurd that during a global pandemic + vaccination backlog, they won't allow pharmacists and nurses to administer vaccines. Pray we never experience a more serious pandemic where such draconian gatekeeping bureaucracy would be devastatingly fatal (not that thousands aren't denying each week, while the German government just sits on vaccines).

I completely disagree. Vaccinations have to be done in major centers. You cannot clogg pharmacies and Hausharzts with long vaccination queues! They have to keep operating normally!

Example: a haushartz with a (somewhat larger) waiting room of 12 people. Because those people have to wait 30 minutes to check for side effects, this means the maximum capacity is 24 people per hour! Independently on how many nurses and doctors are inside! And of course, in the meantime nobody else can be attended for other business!

At the same time, a vaccination center is not limited by waiting time, it's just limited by number of nurses/doctors.

 

Again, the problem is not on the vaccination centers! It's on the lack of vaccines and the stupid rule to put aside the second dose!

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, HEM said:

 

If they did they would likely be pilloried by exactly the same people who are complaining now.

You may get the usual "rent a quote" mob decrying it but I think a good % of the population of those countries can see the need for something.

We keep reading about the anti maskers/vaxers,covid fake mob but don`t forget these people are only a very tiny % of the population,they just have much bigger mouths and click hungry media wanting their quotes.

The media doesn`t report on the millions of people who have had no reactions to the vaccine they just make a big splash about the very few who have had a reaction.

Yes people will complain and it will be splashed all over the media but it will only be a very small %

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Example: a haushartz with a (somewhat larger) waiting room of 12 people.

 

Since corona, my doc only has about 6 chairs in his decent sized waiting room. Everything is appointment only except picking up prescriptions. No way could he handle corona vaccines.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes much the same here. On the other hand a single vaccine centre out in the suburbs seems a bit light for a city the size of Munich. I am sure they could find suitable accommodation in most quarters of the city for a more convenient local sub centres once they have sufficient supplies available, lets hope.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Yes much the same here. On the other hand a single vaccine centre out in the suburbs seems a bit light for a city the size of Munich. I am sure they could find suitable accommodation in most quarters of the city for a more convenient local sub centres once they have sufficient supplies available, lets hope.

I've said for months that this must be done as an industrial or military process. You need a very large parking area, similar concept to what they've been doing at Theresienwiese for drive-in testing.

  1. One large parking area for arrivals, triage and processing of documentation
  2. Multiple tents for the actual vaccination
  3. Another very large parking area for the ones waiting for the 30 minutes. Can be a mix of tents with chairs and parking spots so each one can stay on its car. To monitor those in cars, either they have to come with some other person to keep an eye on them or they have to step out of the car. Perhaps incentive people on bringing their own folding chair or just a box to sit on.

Triage and documentation checking can be done by non medical personel, but with proper training. Ideally this should even be done online, people would just have the approval before coming there.

Add some extra personnel to help with preparations.

Then your limit is how many vaccines a doctor/nurse can give per day. Each should give a minimum of 100 per day, but ideally 300 or more. Let's settle with an average of 200.

For the target I've identified (700.000 per day), you would therefore need around 3500 nurses and doctors, at 200 vaccines per day, for the whole country.

Munich has 1.6M, so it would need to give 13176 vaccines per day. That's 65 doctors and nurses.

For the current numbers, that's only 20 doctors and nurses for a big city like Munich! This is clearly not the bottleneck!

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read that the BASF offered to vaccinate their personnal (30000) and their families on their site in Ludwigshafen.

They have 24 doctors and 150 other medical personnal on site.

My gues is that they will not allowed to do it.

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

I've said for months that this must be done as an industrial or military process. You need a very large parking area,

 

If you had more sub-centres located in the city people would not need to go there by car, and those without cars would not need to risk possibly lengthy travel by S-bahn and then a service bus. You have to register centrally online in advance to get an appointment for the vaccine anyway so it should only require much checking of documentation.

I accept that a single large centre can offer efficiencies of size but not much use if people find it inconvenient to get to it and fail to honour or postpone appointments.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Football / sports stadiums. They have the capacity, are free, have parking, have good transport links, have clear in and out, and people can sit while they wait then go out a separate exit.

 

there are also many per city. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oscar 63 said:

Football / sports stadiums. They have the capacity, are free, have parking, have good transport links, have clear in and out, and people can sit while they wait then go out a separate exit.

 

there are also many per city. 

 

Good idea if they are covered and heated. We had freezing wet stuff falling all day today with wind.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about all the brauhaus donating those big octoberfest tents and then doing it in the big Octoberfest area. In Bremen, Zechs, a big builder is donating/permitting to use a lot of his buildings / funding for vacination drive

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/03/2021, 08:16:36, theGman said:

 

I don't agree with this. I think we (humanity) did need to make "a gamble". I put gamble in quotation marks because it wasn't really a spin of a roulette wheel. This is science. It wasn't certain, but chances were high that these vaccines were gonna work. What had anyone got to lose? Some money? Lockdown is costing billions. And the longer we wait, the more people are dying. The UK and the US played it right. We needed to throw money at this hard, and early. The EU played it too cautiously and is now losing, hard.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am pretty sure that once all is said and done, the UK numbers will still look pretty bad compared to the EU. And I agree with the EU policy of not leaving any country behind. But they dropped the ball on making orders.

 

And all this talk about AstraZeneca is a load of shite too. It bloody works. The flu vaccine has about 50% efficacy each year, and even in trials AZ beats that easily. And now real data is starting to come out, AZ is looking more and more solid:

 

From The Economist:

 

 

We needed vaccines in arms. Even if the AZ vaccine turned out to be not as great, get it in some fucking arms now and deal out some Pfizer later in the year. Numbers in Germany look to be going up again now and the vaccine program is fucking nowhere.


Nothing can be done on an industrial or military scale if only *doctors* can give the vaccine. That’s the point of my post that flew over your head. I didn’t say the vaccine should be given in private doctors’ offices or pharmacies. I said trained pharmacists and nurses should be able to administer vaccines so that you can, you guessed it, vaccinate on an industrial scale. Germany doesn’t have nearly enough doctors to vaccinate on such a scale so having these absurd restrictions on which people are sufficiently qualified to administer the jab means it is going to take AGES to work through the German population, which is why we’re seeing other countries far outpace Germany and will continue to do so.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, RajeshG said:

What about all the brauhaus donating those big octoberfest tents and then doing it in the big Octoberfest area. In Bremen, Zechs, a big builder is donating/permitting to use a lot of his buildings / funding for vacination drive

 

 

Those "tents" are actually big, wooden buildings and they take weeks and weeks to build and it costs millions. Probably not practical.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Fritsen said:


Nothing can be done on an industrial or military scale if only *doctors* can give the vaccine. That’s the point of my post that flew over your head. I didn’t say the vaccine should be given in private doctors’ offices or pharmacies. I said trained pharmacists and nurses should be able to administer vaccines so that you can, you guessed it, vaccinate on an industrial scale. Germany doesn’t have nearly enough doctors to vaccinate on such a scale so having these absurd restrictions on which people are sufficiently qualified to administer the jab means it is going to take AGES to work through the German population, which is why we’re seeing other countries far outpace Germany and will continue to do so.

It´s not like that only doctors are allowed to vaccinate - they merely have to bear the responsibility and need to be around in case of an emergency or severe adverse event. They are allowed to delegate the actual act of  administering the vaccine.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Fritsen said:


Nothing can be done on an industrial or military scale if only *doctors* can give the vaccine. That’s the point of my post that flew over your head. I didn’t say the vaccine should be given in private doctors’ offices or pharmacies. I said trained pharmacists and nurses should be able to administer vaccines so that you can, you guessed it, vaccinate on an industrial scale. Germany doesn’t have nearly enough doctors to vaccinate on such a scale so having these absurd restrictions on which people are sufficiently qualified to administer the jab means it is going to take AGES to work through the German population, which is why we’re seeing other countries far outpace Germany and will continue to do so.

It's a weird thing in Germany that nurses are so badly trained that they have serious difficulties in taking blood or injecting anything!

In Portugal it's the opposite, nurses are extremely qualified and doctors are not usually doing these "smaller" tasks. It's also normal to get your flu shot at the pharmacy.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, RajeshG said:

What about all the brauhaus donating those big octoberfest tents and then doing it in the big Octoberfest area. In Bremen, Zechs, a big builder is donating/permitting to use a lot of his buildings / funding for vacination drive

 

 

Not necessary there are plenty of beer halls around here with nobody able to use them, I would have no problems having my jabs at the Hofbrauhaus. Maybe they could even offer a Mass as an incentive to those who are worried about side effects.:D

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I imagine it is all about insurance and liability. Nobody prepared to take (financial) responsibility should someone get a mild headache. Society's silent paralysis.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did not mean to suggest that the breweries should be offering the vaccine but that the city/state could use such event and gathering locations, that are currently closed in the lockdown, for localised vaccine rollout.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

It's a weird thing in Germany that nurses are so badly trained that they have serious difficulties in taking blood or injecting anything!

In Portugal it's the opposite, nurses are extremely qualified and doctors are not usually doing these "smaller" tasks. It's also normal to get your flu shot at the pharmacy.

Injections aren´t as trivial as you seem to think. There are whole textbooks only about the correct technique of doing it. And especially the Biontech vaccine requires special handling, which is deviating from "normal" procedure. Therefore, some Bundesländer even considered having not only doctors but also a pharmacist present at the vaccination centres (not sure whether they finally decided to go that route, I only know that Bavaria decided not to). Think of injecting a bunch of soap bubbles while making sure they don´t burst or conflate. That´s why e.g. you mustn´t aspirate before injecting (which you´d usually do in order to know that the tip of the cannula isn´t inside a blood vessel) as the fluctuations of pressure inside the syringe may affect the effectiveness of the vaccine.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, AnswerToLife42 said:

I read that the BASF offered to vaccinate their personnal (30000) and their families on their site in Ludwigshafen.

They have 24 doctors and 150 other medical personnal on site.

My gues is that they will not allowed to do it.

 

 

 

I got a flu shot last year thanks to the corporation I work for. I guess the state don't want to lose control and also don't want the accusations that young fit workers were allowed to jump the queue. On the other hand, the more people vaccinated sooner the better it is for everyone, and if Bosch, Mercedes and Porsche vaccinated all their employees here in Stuttgart that'd be a big chunk of the population.

 

Auf Deutsch:

https://www.swr.de/swraktuell/baden-wuerttemberg/corona-impfen-betriebe-100.html

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now