6,203 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, balticus said:

The vulnerable groups would self-isolate to protect themselves, not to protect me.

 

Yes - we agree.

 

 

No - i would ask people at risk to mitigate their own risk first rather than restricting others to mitigate the risk.  

 

It would be like inviting a group of people over with some of them having Diabetes.   I would expect the diabetics to manage what they eat rather than forcing everyone else to comply with their dietary needs.    Vegetarians the same.

 

My position is the opposite of that.    People who have vulnerabilities, and especially those who have vulnerabilities due to poor lifestyle choices do not get to dictate what everyone else does.   They need to get their own health in order first before asking others to sacrfice.  

 

Didn't mean to ignore your questions.  ;)

I tend to agree with what you are saying, personal responsibility should be a factor here. However, this isn't a situation where it is being made easy.

We are not jut asking them to look after their own health, we areaksing them to take one for the team so rest of us do not suffer more than we should.

 

People who are more at risk to get the virus and become ill are not only more likely to spread it (due to the time it takes for symptoms to show) but also more likely to clog up the health system.
It's not just their risk they are mitigating, they are mitigating a risk for other people.

As such we are not just asking them to show personal responsibility for themselves, but also consideration for the rest of us. If that's the case, then shouldn't we show consideration for them?

When I say we, I don't mean us, here on the forum, but there should be reserved delivery slots for people who are officially self isolating (or have tested positive) should no other option be available.

With the personal lifestyle, I am half way with you but the world just doesn't work like that. We walk at the ace of the slowest to make it all work. we ban substances, we ban activities yet we do not control how much unhealthy stuff goes in to food. Healthy food takes either cash, time or both, bt everyone has them.

Throw in the grey area of people living healthy and then bad things happen. 

I knew a guy in the UK years ago who was knocked off his bike and injured his neck. he was totally in the clear as far as fault goes, cycle to work and was far more healthy than I was, am or will ever be.

The family nearly lost their house, not what i'd call a poor lifestyle choice (i'm not saying you are, it's just one of those grey areas in life)..

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, balticus said:

If you have high blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, poor diet, other risks - take the steps to solve your own problems.    

Yup that all encompassing Diabetes.

Tell me how to cure Type 1 Diabetes as there are millions of people who would love to know ?

Tell all those poor people who cannot afford to feed their kids with nutritious stuff and have to feed them on cheap unhealthy products how to do this I`m sure they`d love to know.

Tell all those cancer sufferers/survivors how to get rid of their health risks I`m sure they would love to know.

You seem to think people in high risks groups have brought their risks on themselves.

 

Oh as an aside after the Woodward interviews do you still think Trump is doing a good job combating corona ?

Also Sweden has the biggest GDP loss of Scandinavian Countries and the highest death rate per pop so can you explain why they did the right thing in your eyes ?

6 hours ago, lunaCH said:

I read that earlier. It's really getting silly. This is happening more and more. Most of the situations could be avoided

It`s idiots like Balticus who cause these sort of problems by having the everyone should look after themselves type of attitude.

7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, cb6dba said:

I tend to agree with what you are saying, personal responsibility should be a factor here. However, this isn't a situation where it is being made easy.

We are not jut asking them to look after their own health, we areaksing them to take one for the team so rest of us do not suffer more than we should.

We are asking them to self-isolate to the greatest degree possible and to address any health issues which are within their own control. 

9 hours ago, cb6dba said:

People who are more at risk to get the virus and become ill are not only more likely to spread it (due to the time it takes for symptoms to show) but also more likely to clog up the health system.

 

I see the risk of COVID as very low, but you are suggesting, for example, that someone else obesity is a direct health risk to others as they have a greater chance (greater than a very low probability which is still very low) of being a carrier.   

 

So in the vast majority of incidences of obesity which are driven by lifestyle choices, that lack of personal responsibility increases the threat to others.   

 

The health system is not overtaxed right now by the way.    People who make bad lifestyle decisions tend to use more of the scarce healthcare resources than those who don't.  

 

9 hours ago, cb6dba said:

As such we are not just asking them to show personal responsibility for themselves, but also consideration for the rest of us. If that's the case, then shouldn't we show consideration for them?

 

We are maintaining our own health without being asked.   They should do the same without needing to be reminded.

9 hours ago, cb6dba said:

When I say we, I don't mean us, here on the forum, but there should be reserved delivery slots for people who are officially self isolating (or have tested positive) should no other option be available.

 

I agree with that.  

9 hours ago, cb6dba said:

With the personal lifestyle, I am half way with you but the world just doesn't work like that. We walk at the ace of the slowest to make it all work.

We don't.   Take education - those who work hard have options.   Those who do not perform are limited.   

 

Sports, business, careers, romance, music, etc - you allocate your time according to your priorities and interests and the chances of a favorable outcome are better.    There is some randomness in all things and some people have more talent and more choices to begin with. 

 

9 hours ago, cb6dba said:

we ban substances, we ban activities yet we do not control how much unhealthy stuff goes in to food. Healthy food takes either cash, time or both, bt everyone has them.

Around 25% of Germans are obese.   This is a rich country and i would guess that many of those who are obese are not poor.   

9 hours ago, cb6dba said:

I knew a guy in the UK years ago who was knocked off his bike and injured his neck. he was totally in the clear as far as fault goes, cycle to work and was far more healthy than I was, am or will ever be.

The family nearly lost their house, not what i'd call a poor lifestyle choice (i'm not saying you are, it's just one of those grey areas in life)..

 

I don't enough details to remark on that case, but let's be clear:   his efforts to keep fit did not cause his injury.   Maybe the driver was careless, maybe your friend was careless, maybe a mouse ran out in front of him, etc, etc.  

 

If you maintain a healthy lifestyle and address health problems, the chances of living a better quality of life for a longer duration increase. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Keleth said:

You seem to think people in high risks groups have brought their risks on themselves.

 

 

Many have.  

 

8 hours ago, Keleth said:

 

Oh as an aside after the Woodward interviews do you still think Trump is doing a good job combating corona ?

Post on one of the many Trump threads please.

8 hours ago, Keleth said:

It`s idiots like Balticus who cause these sort of problems by having the everyone should look after themselves type of attitude.

 

Which problems do i cause? 

 

Are you suggesting that you shouldn't need to take responsibility for your own health?    Have another pastry.   

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, balticus said:

My position is the opposite of that.    People who have vulnerabilities, and especially those who have vulnerabilities due to poor lifestyle choices do not get to dictate what everyone else does.   They need to get their own health in order first before asking others to sacrfice.  

 

 

This is so full of privilege.  First world privilege, economical privilege, luck in the genetic lottery privilege, ...

8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, balticus said:

So in the vast majority of incidences of obesity which are driven by lifestyle choices, that lack of personal responsibility increases the threat to others.   

 

The health system is not overtaxed right now by the way.    People who make bad lifestyle decisions tend to use more of the scarce healthcare resources than those who don't. 

 

It's not overtaxed now, due the the low infection rate.

The increased risk to others is the point, this topic is not just them taking responsibility for their own health by isolating, but taking responsibility to reduce the risk to us all (and not just regarding covid).

Which was the pont I was trying to make - if we expect them to take responsibility to reduce the risk they pose (even though it is caused by them), we should at least make it as easy for them as possible. we can dress this up as them taking responsibility for their own health, but it is also about removing the risk they pose to the rest of us - so it's not just about their health.

 

Otherwise they may not bother.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

A lot of them cannot do home office. How are they supposed to pay the bills? Or are you going to pay their bills?

Very true, In fact I doubt the proportion of people who can do home office is more than a third of all workers. The rest have jobs for which it is simply impossible. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Berlin. In the view of Federal Health Minister Jens Spahn, the use of a possible corona vaccine should first need to be prioritised. In the initial phase there will probably not be enough vaccine for everyone, the CDU politician told "Focus Online" (Friday). Therefore, the Vaccination Commission is working on proposals where some things are already foreseeable. "First of all, those who are exposed to a risk due to their jobs - nurses, doctors and physicians - will be vaccinated. And then come risk groups such as the very elderly or people with pre-existing conditions".

 

He is optimistic that after a few months there could be enough for everyone - if there is a vaccine then. Spahn reiterated: "There will be no compulsory vaccination".

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

https://www.rnd.de/politik/corona-impfstoff-fur-arzte-und-pfleger-jens-spahn-rechnet-mit-prioritatensetzung-TBTFQOCFMJ62MMKKPAU4GWZ4YI.html

 

 

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coronavirus: Cases in France leap past 10,000 a day

 

Quote
France has reported a record daily increase in coronavirus cases as the country struggles to contain a fresh surge in infections.
On Saturday health authorities said there were 10,561 new cases, rising by more than 1,000 from Friday's figures.
 
The numbers of people admitted to hospital and intensive care are also increasing.
A group of doctors have urged people to avoid private gatherings amid the fresh outbreak.
 
"After the joy of reuniting this summer, it's time to be careful in the private world," the doctors said in a column published in Le Journal du Dimanche on Sunday.
"The smaller a room, the more people it contains, the less airy it is, the more you increase the risks."

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

Perhaps the Frenzies should stop kissing each other during greetings 🤔.

 

True. Even the Germans have stopped shaking hands. Never thought it was possible. 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In India they are about to reach 100,000 infections...daily. The good thing is that two-thirds of population is below 35 years, so this explains the low death rate.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, LukeSkywalker said:

In India they are about to reach 100,000 infections...daily. The good thing is that two-thirds of population is below 35 years, so this explains the low death rate.

My guess is that like other third world countries, only the healthiest survive childhood, or anecdotally, as they say in Brazil, a brazilian can jump on a sewer  and nothing happens.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, lunaCH said:

They have to be worn properly though. Plenty of people don't fit them correctly. I've seen masks-a-dangling many a time over the past few months when they are supposed to be worn.

Yes, and there are still people deliberately avoiding or trying to avoid (not covering the nose) wearing them on the U-Bahn, sorry to have to say (I have mentioned this before) but it is still predominantly younger women and teenage girls!

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lunaCH said:

They have to be worn properly though.

Not properly = no mask... that's a no-brainer where a study is concerned.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 it is still predominantly younger women and teenage girls!

possibly trying to avoid smudging their make-up? :unsure:

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although Germany is doing a good job avoiding a strong second wave, the south of Germany is not doing so well. Munich seemed to be under control but cases are steadily growing.

What is unknown so far is how much percentage are detected at borders and put in quarantine. Therefore it is not possible to know how severe it is. If most of the new cases are from people just arriving from holidays, then it is not a big issue.

 

My company had its first case this week and the worker got it from his kid, who got it from a classmate. There goes the Swedish crazy idea that kids don´t spread the disease.

If this goes slight up for a whole week, much stricter measures will be taken, as the threshold of 50 infections per day per 100.000 is close (47).

corona_munich_20200917.png.3c56ee437692f

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now