9,719 posts in this topic

Well, seems Spanish politicians are not much better, here is a nice excuse from an idiot in charge:

https://www.heraldo.es/noticias/nacional/2020/05/04/la-vicepresidenta-ribera-achaca-el-exito-de-portugal-en-la-lucha-contra-el-covid-19-a-que-estan-mas-al-oeste-1372883.html

 

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Teresa Ribera blames the success of Portugal in the fight against the covid-19 to which it is "more to the west" and receives criticism in the networks - Numerous users have criticized the statements of the fourth vice president and minister for the Ecological Transition and the Demographic Challenge.

 

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I'm trying really hard not to give Trump or Foxnews weapons agains WHO, but I just read about this major fuck up:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2020/05/04/did-the-whos-endorsement-of-tcm-contribute-to-the-covid-19-pandemic/#20f2bf5a11c0

 

Although you cannot blame WHO directly for the pandemic, it is very clear that it had become a political tool from the Chinese to promote traditional Chinese medicine, which is mostly quackery, but especially damaging because relies on massive killing of wildlife, which brought us all these diseases.

And of course promotion of TCM is a well known nationalist policy of China, and a cheap way to "provide" health care.

 

At very least, to gain a minimum of credibility back, WHO must quickly retract its support for TCM quackery and do some soul searching on its goals.

As i have ZERO tolerance for quackery, knowing this, I now fully support removing WHO financing, until they remove their support for TCM, not because of coronavirus response, but because of their support for TCM and associated wildlife killing.

Let the hate begin!

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5 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I'm trying really hard not to give Trump or Foxnews weapons agains WHO, but I just read about this major fuck up:

 

You and Trump are in agreement in your criticism of Sweden also.  

 

BTW

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

 

With May 1 a holiday in Sweden + the apparent weekly seasonality, it is probably worth it to wait until the end of this week before declaring a new trend, but there are some reasons for optimism.  

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1 hour ago, balticus said:

 

You and Trump are in agreement in your criticism of Sweden also.  

With Trump, you just need to pick a different day for him to have an opposite opinion on a topic. Basically he agrees and disagrees with everyone at some point.

He uses Sweden to justify the lockdown, but at the same time he tries to get rid of the lockdown and blames governors for it...

 

1 hour ago, balticus said:

With May 1 a holiday in Sweden + the apparent weekly seasonality, it is probably worth it to wait until the end of this week before declaring a new trend, but there are some reasons for optimism.  

At the moment it is exactly the same pattern as a week ago. Barely any reports during the weekend, followed by >80 deaths on Monday. This week is even slightly up. Mid week is usually where most deaths are reported. TBH, even this report pattern is evidence of terrible management, probably due to regional nature of their healthcare system.

Ironically, this could be the result of a lockdown  in Sweden, as they finally imposed strict rules on retirement homes, where half the deaths occurred. So maybe we are seeing the effect of retirement homes lockdown, but then daily deaths continue steady as the rest of the country does not stop.

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33 minutes ago, CiaraDoran said:

https://extra.ie/2020/05/01/news/world-news/who-sweden-covid-19-lockdown  , Swedens aproach to the virus is most viable in the long term,

Completely unproven so far. They have amazing circumstances working for them (see below) and still a lot of people are dying!

  • very low population density
  • more independent young adults, i.e. not living with parents
  • less family and social life than southern countries

 

33 minutes ago, CiaraDoran said:

all countrys must come out of lockdown eventually

Of course, question is how many citizens die and if you are willing to sacrifice old people just so the economy can continue. Worst, it is not proven that they will even fare better economically than other countries.

 

33 minutes ago, CiaraDoran said:

and will probably end up taking on a similar model to what Sweden is doing right now 

You do realize that other countries might come out of lockdown and NOT allow borders to sweden to open for a while? So in practice Sweden could be locking itself out of the world for a few months more than other countries?

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When countrys reopen their borders, regardless of where your from they will be strict letting people in. Without a valid reason i.e you are a resident, for business purposes or eductional purposes, I doubt people will be able to freely travel for some time

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Also in regards to Sweden trusting their own people to social distance themselves with out putting in strict lock down regualtions it probably is working just aswell as countrys who have imposed lock downs. I know in the case of Ireland where we are currently under lock down there are people who are still irresponsibly meeting up with their friends. Plus because this is our 6th week of lock down people are starting to grow tired of it and resent the rules and are beginning to break them. It is clear that the death rate in Sweden is higher this is probably due to schools etc being open but I think it is inevitable that the death rate will rise in countrys if they want to reach a sustainable approach which is the safest it can be for all levels of society, we cant forget about homeless people and familys on very low income that are suffering greatly at this time. 

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1 hour ago, CiaraDoran said:

all countrys must come out of lockdown eventually and will probably end up taking on a similar model to what Sweden is doing right now 

I´m not sure. There may well be differences in handling those infected. What seems not to be getting the attention it deserves is the question of how patients are monitored in their homes. Are all countries sending doctors to patients´ homes to check on them 2 -3 times a week to be able to realise if/when they should better be treated in hospital as opposed to staying at home until they can´t breathe anymore and need to be admitted to ICU right away? I have a suspicion this might explain to quite some extent (beyond testing) why the death rate in Germany has been lower than e. g. in the US, UK and Sweden.

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Just now, CiaraDoran said:

Also in regards to Sweden trusting their own people to social distance themselves with out putting in strict lock down regualtions it probably is working just aswell as countrys who have imposed lock downs. I know in the case of Ireland where we are currently under lock down there are people who are still irresponsibly meeting up with their friends. Plus because this is our 6th week of lock down people are starting to grow tired of it and resent the rules and are beginning to break them. It is clear that the death rate in Sweden is higher this is probably due to schools etc being open

Sweden fucked up when they allowed schools, especially kindergartens, to remain open. Kids are not "responsible", so the whole concept collapses when you allow schools to remain open. The second fuck up (but now they fixed it) was to allow retirement homes to continue working as before. Elderly confined people can't protect themselves, even if they are responsible!

 

Just now, CiaraDoran said:

but I think it is inevitable that the death rate will rise in countrys if they want to reach a sustainable approach which is the safest it can be for all levels of society, we cant forget about homeless people and familys on very low income that are suffering greatly at this time. 

Many countries say otherwise. The whole problem with Sweden's approach is assuming inevitability of high death numbers.

What if in 1 or 2 months we have a treatment with high success rate? How stupid will Sweden sound, as it let thousands of unnecessary deaths to occur?

 

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Quote

Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/

 

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Dr. Anthony Fauci, whose “expert” advice to President Trump has resulted in the complete shutdown of the greatest economic engine in world history, has known since 2005 that chloroquine is an effective inhibitor of coronaviruses.

How did he know this? Because of research done by the National Institutes of Health, of which he is the director. In connection with the SARS outbreak - caused by a coronavirus dubbed SARS- CoV - the NIH researched chloroquine and concluded that it was effective at stopping the SARS coronavirus in its tracks. The COVID-19 bug is likewise a coronavirus, labeled SARS-CoV-2. While not exactly the same virus as SARS-CoV-1, it is genetically related to it, and shares 79% of its genome, as the name SARS-CoV-2 implies. They both use the same host cell receptor, which is what viruses use to gain entry to the cell and infect the victim.

 

https://onenewsnow.com/perspectives/bryan-fischer/2020/04/27/fauci-knew-about-hcq-in-2005-nobody-needed-to-die

 

Oh dear...

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4 minutes ago, jeba said:

I´m not sure. There may well be differences in handling those infected. What seems not to be getting the attention it deserves is the question of how patients are monitored in their homes. Are all countries sending doctors to patients´ homes to check on them 2 -3 times a week to be able to realise if/when they should better be treated in hospital as opposed to staying at home until they can´t breathe anymore and need to be admitted to ICU right away? I have a suspicion this might explain to quite some extent (beyond testing) why the death rate in Germany has been lower than e. g. in the US, UK and Sweden.

Interesting! I had not considered this as a possibility to why Germany has a lower death rate, I was pinning it down to higher amounts of testing, but your theory definitely makes sense ! 

 

5 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

Many countries say otherwise. The whole problem with Sweden's approach is assuming inevitability of high death numbers.

What if in 1 or 2 months we have a treatment with high success rate? How stupid will Sweden sound, as it let thousands of unnecessary deaths to occur?

 

True most countries are taking a better safe than sorry approach which is definitely appreciated by most citizens as at the end of the day nothing is more important than life. I still do think though if no developements are made in medicine for the virus, countries will have no choice but to open economies 

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13 minutes ago, jeremytwo said:

 

 

J2, you need to learn the difference between in vitro and in vivo. Taken from the NIH article you linked:

 

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[... ]    Chloroquine is effective in preventing the spread of SARS CoV in cell culture.  [...]

 

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1 hour ago, jeremytwo said:

Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread

I seem to remember this was totally disproved some weeks ago when it was found the side effects of the drug on Covid 19 patients resulted in worse outcomes than the virus alone. Or is my memory failing?

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1 hour ago, jeba said:

I´m not sure. There may well be differences in handling those infected. What seems not to be getting the attention it deserves is the question of how patients are monitored in their homes. Are all countries sending doctors to patients´ homes to check on them 2 -3 times a week to be able to realise if/when they should better be treated in hospital as opposed to staying at home until they can´t breathe anymore and need to be admitted to ICU right away? I have a suspicion this might explain to quite some extent (beyond testing) why the death rate in Germany has been lower than e. g. in the US, UK and Sweden.

Ât least we have it in Heidelberg.

It is called "Corona taxis"

Also known in New York, possibly too late: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate.html

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1 hour ago, CiaraDoran said:

 I still do think though if no developements are made in medicine for the virus, countries will have no choice but to open economies 

There will be developments, and fast. As I´ve said a few days ago, this is a disease with an extremely fast cycle. From infection to death in 2-4 weeks. In comparison, HIV or Cancer can take 10 years for a full cycle. It means you try out a drug, you get feedback in a few weeks, compared with decades for Cancer and HIV. I am sure that an effective treatment will show up in the upcoming 2 months and a vaccine in a few more months. Then Sweden authorities will look like idiots.

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3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

There will be developments, and fast. As I´ve said a few days ago, this is a disease with an extremely fast cycle. From infection to death in 2-4 weeks. In comparison, HIV or Cancer can take 10 years for a full cycle. It means you try out a drug, you get feedback in a few weeks, compared with decades for Cancer and HIV. I am sure that an effective treatment will show up in the upcoming 2 months and a vaccine in a few more months. Then Sweden authorities will look like idiots.

I hope you´re right !

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1 hour ago, keith2011 said:

I seem to remember this was totally disproved some weeks ago when it was found the side effects of the drug on Covid 19 patients resulted in worse outcomes than the virus alone. Or is my memory failing?

 

It's not disproven. It's just that this what happens in a cell culture on a Petri dish. That's what the article is referring to. You have to get past the headline to read that. What happens on a Petri dish and what happens in a full organism with a bunch of organs—particularly a liver that metabolizes drugs into other things—are different things. So, yes, cloroquine may well be a strong inhibitor of SARS in vitro but the empirical data so far doesn't suggest that it is a magic bullet in vivo  and the jury is still out on whether it provides a significant benefit to those who have fallen ill.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

I am sure that an effective treatment will show up in the upcoming 2 months and a vaccine in a few more months. Then Sweden authorities will look like idiots.

On the other hand most other countries will look like idiots if there is no vaccine / treatment and they have sacrificed their economies for nothing.

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