Tesla Gigafactories, News and Conversation

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If this was a NASA project, they would stop it for months, a congress comission would be formed to evaluate it and it would cost a fortune.

Private sector: next day a crane came in, placed the rocket properly, they are replacing the damaged wings and flying it in a few weeks.

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8 hours ago, Keleth said:

Ones funded by the govt and the others a private entity.Makes a hell of a difference for that sort of thing.

Can you imagine the outcry (rightly so) if NASA tried a new rocket every month.

 

The major difference (and driver) is the accounting systems used by government vs. private sector.  If a new rocket every month was in the budget, the gov would have a new rocket every month.  If it's not, they won't.  The General Ledger Rules All.

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3 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

If this was a NASA project, they would stop it for months, a congress comission would be formed to evaluate it and it would cost a fortune.

Private sector: next day a crane came in, placed the rocket properly, they are replacing the damaged wings and flying it in a few weeks.

 

26 minutes ago, catjones said:

 

The major difference (and driver) is the accounting systems used by government vs. private sector.  If a new rocket every month was in the budget, the gov would have a new rocket every month.  If it's not, they won't.  The General Ledger Rules All.

 

My point exactly.

It`s not a lack of ideas,technology etc from NASA it`s financially and politically driven.

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Really interesting video:

 

Quote

Tesla hacker unlocks Autopilot ‘Augmented Vision’ and it’s awesome

 

A Tesla hacker has unlocked “Autopilot Augmented Vision,” a new mode in Tesla’s autonomous driving suite, that enables to see what Autopilot can detect in real time.

 

https://streamable.com/g568gc

 

https://electrek.co/2020/12/15/tesla-hacker-unlocks-autopilot-augmented-vision-and-its-awesome/

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1 hour ago, SpiderPig said:

If its been hacked to that extent.. who knows what else has or can be hacked... 

Not much more. The car has 2 computers. One is a low level embedded system which controls the car itself, including self driving.

The other is an interface computer, to allow the user to interact with the low level computer and multimedia.

 

What this guy does (and has been doing for years) is hacking the interface. But for that he needs physical access inside the car. If he has that, it means it is even less likely than someone cutting your brake's cables, which does not even need interior access.

And in general he can only access GUI interfaces and some configuration properties, but nothing special.

 

BTW, once I reset the interface computer while having the autopilot engaged and the car kept driving itself. A colleague got scared because he saw the monitor showing a reboot.

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Don't worry Mike, SP loves pissing on parades... 

 

Shame really because I'm really impressed with his barn conversion and devotion to his daughter Lilly.

 

I will not piss on that.

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Thanks JS.. 

 

Parade pissing isnt really my thing...  But what happens when this hacker finds his way nto the main computer?  

 

What could he Steal or corrupt?   

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He can't. It's kinda like a Mac OS in that specific avenues of access are totally closed.

 

I think.

 

I may talking out of my arse end. :) 

 

Mike? Any elucidation on this?

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22 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Parade pissing isnt really my thing...  But what happens when this hacker finds his way nto the main computer?  

What could he Steal or corrupt?   

Would be very hard to break. It's a closed system, no USB sticks to put there and try to hack. No video output. Access is not straightforward, you would need a few hours to access it properly.

The chip is an ASIC, so very hard to break. Not only that, they have a security subsystem that only allows code cryptographically signed by Tesla to run. Meaning that even if someone could change the code, the computer would refuse to work. Perhaps @Metall knows more about this details.

 

Regarding stealing, not much to steal. They could try to steal the neural network running on the system but that by itself is useless, you can't learn anything from it.

 

As a comparison, the 2nd computer can be hacked relatively easy with minor equipment. The main computer would need very specialized equipment and a large team, and even so nothing relevant to steal. To sabotage... well... there are much simpler ways to sabotage a car...

 

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Sorry, I'm not an expert in Tesla chips and programming.

What I do know (from our research and cryptography guys) is that enormous advances in breaking encryption have been made. Right now, everybody is looking at the very first prototypes of quantum computers that seem to be able to easily break certain limited types of cryptography, while oddly enough failing at others. They aren't cryptographic silver bullets. ;)

And you need very, very expensive equipment.

We already are however developing so-called post-quantum cryptography. :)

[insert rumblings about NSA quantum computers in Utah here. ;) ]


But all this is moot if you don't have access to either the system supplying, or the computer using the encrypted code.

Security in most of the automotive industry (meaning the classic old school brands we all know)  still is behind the times in terms of preventing access (physical, login etc.), transmission of plain text across data busses still used in car systems etc.

 

If Tesla has implemented good access control to the car computers, separation of subsystems, segregation of critical hardware components from each other, AND encryption AND running on custom chips with unalterable pathways, then the system could be quite safe.

But again, I don't know anything about Tesla's security design, just have an inkling of what *could* be done.

 

Edit: Come to think of it, MAM would know a good deal more than I do, especially about the chips.

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Tesla cars are not closed they have an internet connection and can be updated/download over the air, they pass all sorts of information back to Tesla HQ and accept data from Tesla HQ - how do you think they add new features ?

I work sometimes with real closed systems, they are not connected to the internet, each file transfer is registered ( USB ) because once you are connected to the internet everything will be tried to break in and there is always a way in, thats just the way it is.

 

Anyone remember when the police wanted to get into an iphone, nobody could or would do it ( apple  )- then they got a phone call from Israel, they opened up the Iphone with ease and charged a fortune to do it. Sky is often broken into, they find the problem in the end, but the system is open for a while. We all know banking systems. 

 

Any system thats on the internet can be hacked.

 

Technology always moves on, some people think the enigma machine was safe, a very simple computer can crack it now.

 

As Metal says  quantum computing is only just around the corner, when that really comes, things will change, btw it already works its just expensive - that will change

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Ok, forgetting tech aside, what would be the purpose of spending a huge amount of money to crack the main computer? 

You can't steal anything valuable from it, as the neural network is useless by itself.

You could potentially modify the behavior of the car (but you would definitely need direct access) but to what end?

 

The OTA update scheme is probably extremely secure. First the SW must be downloaded (to the secondary computer). Second, I'm pretty sure that it is cross-checked again before installation. And third, the security system on the main computer is software independent. It's probably a read only FPGA or similar, meaning you cannot hack it.

 

You are forgetting an advantage of the open system: you can cross-check against Tesla servers. Once the car finishes the update, it probably contacts the server again delivering some hash key to confirm it installed the correct thing.

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4 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

 

 

You are forgetting an advantage of the open system:

 

 

7 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Would be very hard to break. It's a closed system, no USB sticks to put there and try to hack. No video output. Access is not straightforward, you would need a few hours to access it properly.

.

 

 

Now I am confused...  Is it a closed system or an Open system??   Maybe it ajar...   :lol: 

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2 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

 

 

Now I am confused...  Is it a closed system or an Open system??   Maybe it ajar...   :lol: 

In that case I meant there is no direct physical way of interfacing with it. It is not completely closed because it allows remote OTA, through the secondary computer.

 

I said "an advantage", not "the advantage". As an example, Tesla is blocking hacks people do on their cars to increase power output, by remotely monitoring what people do with their system.

But yes, poor choice of words make it an easy target.

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Ahhhh... Gotcha...

 

So Its a closed system apart from the part thats open...  and the part that is open has no direct access to the closed part, but Tesla keep an eye on the closed stuff, "Just in case" which is what all creators of closed systems do, of course!

 

Heaven forbid that someone could hack into the system, make changes and then re-sell as their own system...   or fully activate the auto-pilot for every tesla ever built...   

 

Anyway...   Back to the deisel scandal for me!!!     LOL

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3 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

Ahhhh... Gotcha...

 

So Its a closed system apart from the part thats open...  and the part that is open has no direct access to the closed part, but Tesla keep an eye on the closed stuff, "Just in case" which is what all creators of closed systems do, of course!

 

Heaven forbid that someone could hack into the system, make changes and then re-sell as their own system...   or fully activate the auto-pilot for every tesla ever built... 

FSD is a top level feature, which can and was already hacked. What happened? Those cars can´t do more updates ever. They also can´t use superchargers. They can´t play music, they can´t use live maps. They can´t use Tesla service. Meaning that they are close to useless. And their second hand value drops more than the cost of FSD!

 

We can spend all day talking semantics, but in the end Tesla still has a great control on what people can do with the car. More than Mercedes or BMW with modified motors, for example.

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9 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

We can spend all day talking semantics, but in the end Tesla still has a great control on what people can do with the car. More than Mercedes or BMW with modified motors, for example.

But this isnt about motor modification... the diesel scandal is all about the software manipulation...

 

Wount it be a shock if all affected cars lost a shit load of value over night?  :)

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22 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

But this isnt about motor modification... the diesel scandal is all about the software manipulation...

 

Wount it be a shock if all affected cars lost a shit load of value over night?  :)

Actually, the scandal is about cheating on the emissions. This is the scandal. Software was not manipulated. Software was design on purpose to cheat the test.

 

Blaming software is becoming a worrisome trend.

Boeing MAX scandal was also blamed on SW, but that is 100% false!

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23 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Actually, the scandal is about cheating on the emissions. This is the scandal. Software was not manipulated. Software was design on purpose to cheat the test.

 

Blaming software is becoming a worrisome trend.

Boeing MAX scandal was also blamed on SW, but that is 100% false!

 

ECJ rules that the cheat software is, indeed, illegal.

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