Berlin to get a Tesla Gigafactory

376 posts in this topic

22 minutes ago, jeremytwo said:

 

Probably way over your head Hoops, but give this a go:

 

 

Nikolai Tesla invented alternating current which Edison stole. Most of Tesla's papers ended up in the hands of John Trump a gifted physicist at MIT.  Tesla's science contained research into free energy, including wireless energy transmission (Marconi grabbed that). This is the tech which got JFK killed, which contains knowledge of what the UFO project is. If you don't believe me, listen to DJ's research shows Fridays.

 

 

Image result for over your head gif

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Quote from http://edison.rutgers.edu/tesla.htm ....

 

'No finer engine of misinformation has ever exceeded the World Wide Web. It is here that thousands of false memes and rumors are planted daily and grow virally until they become, in the popular imagination, something like the truth. One need only to type the word "Edison" into any search engine to find a myriad of web sites, blogs, and assorted writings which declare that Edison, recognized in his own time as the greatest of inventors, stole all of his ideas and that the chief victim of his thievery was Nikola Tesla (1856-1943). There is even an online debate in progress that considers the proposition: "Nikola Tesla should be taught about in schools for his inventions instead of the people who stole his ideas like Marconi or Edison."'

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In the end Edison may 'win' with DC.

 

Most things in people's homes actually consume it. Only larger (in a domestic sense) motors typically directly use the AC that comes into the house through the mains supply but how many AC motors does a house have compared to everything else? Dishwasher, washing machine, heat pump, central heating pump perhaps and ventilation system fan? That's all we have in our house anyway. Small fans inside electronics like PCs are actually DC. These 'larger' motors can all be replaced with DC versions. EVs have DC motors. There will be a cornucopia of new DC motors on the market in short order due to the explosion of EV use.

 

All those phone and laptop chargers all contain rectifiers to convert Tesla's AC into Edison's DC for end use in the various devices.

 

AC became popular for one reason: it is more efficient to transmit electricity over long distances using AC but in the future I suspect homes will not have mains connections and will run completely off solar energy, which is DC. AC will be retired for consumer devices at some point in the future I believe as it will be completely pointless.

 

Currently most PV installations have an inverter which perversely converts the DC into 230Vac so it is compatible with the existing infrastructure of the house and so it can be fed into the grid when too much is being produced for the building itself. This is also a lossy process.

 

Inversion and rectification are both inefficient. That's the heat you feel from your laptop charger. Pure wasted energy.

 

 

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1 hour ago, murphaph said:

In the end Edison may 'win' with DC.

 

Most things in people's homes actually consume it. Only larger (in a domestic sense) motors typically directly use the AC that comes into the house through the mains supply but how many AC motors does a house have compared to everything else? Dishwasher, washing machine, heat pump, central heating pump perhaps and ventilation system fan? That's all we have in our house anyway. Small fans inside electronics like PCs are actually DC. These 'larger' motors can all be replaced with DC versions. EVs have DC motors. There will be a cornucopia of new DC motors on the market in short order due to the explosion of EV use.

 

All those phone and laptop chargers all contain rectifiers to convert Tesla's AC into Edison's DC for end use in the various devices.

 

AC became popular for one reason: it is more efficient to transmit electricity over long distances using AC but in the future I suspect homes will not have mains connections and will run completely off solar energy, which is DC. AC will be retired for consumer devices at some point in the future I believe as it will be completely pointless.

 

Currently most PV installations have an inverter which perversely converts the DC into 230Vac so it is compatible with the existing infrastructure of the house and so it can be fed into the grid when too much is being produced for the building itself. This is also a lossy process.

 

Inversion and rectification are both inefficient. That's the heat you feel from your laptop charger. Pure wasted energy.

 

 

Hi Murphaph,

 

Power=Current*Voltage

And the powerloss over a line with Resistance R is P=I²*R

 

So, if you want an efficient installation in your hose (no significant loss of power on the lines in the house) you want to go up with the voltage and down with the current. Europe considers 230V a compromise between safety and efficiency.

 

Now, here comes a troubel with DC: DC over 100V is extremely tough to handle as you pull a spark whenever a contact is open, what you consider a "normal" light switch will not work with DC, as the distance between the contacts is not wide enough for the spark to die.

 

So for the spark to die, you have to have switching appliances with a large gap between the contacts (I am talking about centimeters here), or you have to interrupt the flow of current to let the spark die. 

 

And that is the cool thing about AC: It interrupts the flow of current 100 times per second.

 

So, lets ussume your Laptop runs internally in 18V DC, and you have to get the power from the solar system to your laptop. 

 

1.) Having 18V lines in your house is iefficient. The voltage on the lines needs to be in the tripple digit range.

 

2.) Now, let's assume you have a 200V DC system in your house. All the switching on and off of things is a pain in the arse to setup (Remember the spark problem I was writing about) and...

 

3.) To run your laptopt, you need a DC/DC converter to step down from the 200V DC to the 18V DC, and these are shite when it comes to efficiency (compared to AC/DC converters, which are rather nice concerning efficiency)

 

So, AC will stay...

 

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Love this video with the driver's 97 year old grandfather, he's trying to explain the car to his Opa and he's wowed. 

 

 

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19 hours ago, French bean said:

Back to the original subject, it doesn't really matter what you think of EV verses ICE, the political will is there to ditch ICE for EV and maybe Tesla is trying to protect itself from political upheavel in economics by having an European factory to supply the European market that won't be so badly affected by trade wars and other shite that could happen.

Yes, but don't forget that a Gigafactory is first a battery factory, then a car factory. I think they see a huge potential for battery megapacks or home installations in Europe.

 

19 hours ago, French bean said:

 

Whether a particular manufacturer is better than another or whether a piece of technology is ahead of the game doesn't really matter, buying a car is often subjective - a purchase based on emotion rather than pure facts. We see that time and again with the different products that some people buy happily while others scoff.

Very good answer. I am sure that most people will not decide based purely on efficiency nor range. Otherwise nobody would be buying the Audi E-Tron. Especially in 5 years, when all of them become quite efficient, it does not matter if you spend 200 or 400€ per year in charging. Nor it matters if it does 500 or 700km in one charge. 

Then manufacturers will once again have to differentiate by other things, like aesthetics, self driving, cargo space or target market (male/female, hipsters, etc) .

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5 hours ago, murphaph said:

In the end Edison may 'win' with DC.

 

Most things in people's homes actually consume it. Only larger (in a domestic sense) motors typically directly use the AC that comes into the house through the mains supply but how many AC motors does a house have compared to everything else? Dishwasher, washing machine, heat pump, central heating pump perhaps and ventilation system fan? That's all we have in our house anyway. Small fans inside electronics like PCs are actually DC. These 'larger' motors can all be replaced with DC versions. EVs have DC motors. There will be a cornucopia of new DC motors on the market in short order due to the explosion of EV use.

That's a nice twist.

5 hours ago, murphaph said:

 

All those phone and laptop chargers all contain rectifiers to convert Tesla's AC into Edison's DC for end use in the various devices.

 

AC became popular for one reason: it is more efficient to transmit electricity over long distances using AC but in the future I suspect homes will not have mains connections and will run completely off solar energy, which is DC. AC will be retired for consumer devices at some point in the future I believe as it will be completely pointless.

I'm not so sure. Even boats have issues when they are longer than 12 meters. They have to go from 12V to 24V, otherwise wires become very thick, to avoid losses.

Above 48V you start having issues, as it is the threshold where DC is harmful for human. At 110V DC is much more dangerous than 110V AC.

Another issue is that you will still need a grid backup, and that will continue to be AC, so you would still have to use a converter.

 

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

Even boats have issues when they are longer than 12 meters. They have to go from 12V to 24V

 

Our boat is 12V and a lot of much bigger boats in our marina are 12V as well. That goes for sailboats and motorboats. To which type of boats are you referring?

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41 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Our boat is 12V and a lot of much bigger boats in our marina are 12V as well. That goes for sailboats and motorboats. To which type of boats are you referring?

Is it solely 12v or does it have a 24v to 12v converter for stuff like GPS,Instruments etc.

With 12v for long distances you need thicker cables because of the power drop off so many boats have 24v with converters to 12v for the above stuff.

 

Don`t know any of this but my BiL is here and he`s a boat freak so if it`s bollocks don`t blame me :)

 

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Some people already wire DC sockets centrally in their new builds. With solid state FETs replacing mechanical contacts the sparking issue can be resolved.

 

I'm talking about quite a few years in the future but I think this is the direction things will take.

 

Appliances are becoming more efficient. That's the biggest change we are seeing. A TV from 20 years ago drew a heck of a lot more current than an equivalent model today.

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1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

 

Our boat is 12V and a lot of much bigger boats in our marina are 12V as well. That goes for sailboats and motorboats. To which type of boats are you referring?

 

Anything above 12 meters, sail or motor. Otherwise you either lose too much power on the cables or you need heavier and more expensive cables.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

Anything above 12 meters, sail or motor. Otherwise you either lose too much power on the cables or you need heavier and more expensive cables.

 

 

 

Or put batteries in a central location to the high consuption devices.

 

 

I tell you what... High voltage DC will not be coming to my house any time soon!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zez2r1RPpWY&feature=youtu.be

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7 hours ago, Anna66 said:

The test drive looks pretty fun!

 

 

 

 

Good I couldn't drive with that screaming. Bad enough with my own two in the back!

 

Anyone see that old Top Gear when the boys tested an e-car from Honda, was it the P1 I forget, and said how awesomely fast it was? 

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1 hour ago, SpiderPig said:

Or put batteries in a central location to the high consuption devices.

 

Problem is that most boats keep batteries close to the engines, on the back of the boat. The middle of most boats does not have much room for centered batteries, as it is premium area. Also when charging the batteries from the engine, you want to keep the cables short. You also want to concentrate everything in a "technical" area/room. Of course in larger boats (>60ft) you can afford to have a technical area in the middle or even under the main floor. I've been on a 85ft Oyster with a full standing technical room under the main area. Had 2 diesel generators running continuously. Of course that boat starts at 8M€, so moving to 24V is the least of your concerns...

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boat-content/files/2013/02/engine-room.jpg

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