Berlin to get a Tesla Gigafactory

376 posts in this topic

50 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Actually, the largest lithium reserves in Europe are in Portugal, if not mistaken 10% of world's reserves. Now the interesting part is that the more they dig, the more they find, so some geologists say that Portugal could have the largest reserves on earth. There are also reserves in Czech republic. Those are not 3rd world countries.

I agree that closing down the power plants was stupid. Still, I think the future is solar micro generation, either at home, office buildings or at large shops, like IKEA already does.

 

That is really interesting.

How about cobalt? This is needed as well and currently mainly comes from sources in places where environmental issues and children having to work for it are quite common?

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1 hour ago, Santitas said:

I was actually excited about the prospect about electric cars until my students squashed it. Actually by the time the semester was over, I was somewhat depressed as they made it seems as though there’s no solution 😭

German students brainwashed by German news media, I guess. 

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1 hour ago, Wherearewegoingto said:

That is really interesting.

How about cobalt? This is needed as well and currently mainly comes from sources in places where environmental issues and children having to work for it are quite common?

Each new battery generation is using less and less cobalt. As an example,  the Tesla Model 3 uses only 4.5Kg of Cobalt per battery, down from 11Kg from the Model S/X.

Although Tesla uses very little cobalt (4x less than a Nissan Leaf, per kWh), Musk said the next generation will use ZERO cobalt.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/17/teslas-cobalt-usage-to-drop-from-3-today-to-0-elon-commits/

 

My expectation is that this battery will be unveiled next year, for the Semi truck (and perhaps to Model Y), along with the novel Maxwell cathode technology for cleaner (no toxic solvents!), cheaper and lighter batteries. And perhaps already ultracapacitors to improve performance and lifetime. The next Tesla battery technology should also last 1.6 million kilometers (compared to the current 800k), basically much longer than a car. Most likely the batteries will, when the car dies, pass on to new cars/trucks and eventually end their life as wall mounted batteries, lasting probably 30-40 years.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/298907-new-study-details-teslas-million-mile-battery-tech

 

The ultracapacitors alone could reduce city driving consumption by 10% or more. These increase the efficiency of fast charging/discharging cycles, which is common in city driving.

 

Not only that, each new generation of batteries are becoming more efficient. In 5 years you probably need a battery 30-50% smaller for the same range. My guess is that Tesla's upcoming battery should be at least 15% smaller (less raw materials) for the same range and 10-15% cheaper to manufacture, which would mean around 2000€-3000€ cheaper cars.

 

This is also an interesting report from Tesla on accountability for child labor, etc.

https://electrek.co/2018/05/30/tesla-conflict-minerals-report-battery-cobalt/

 

Portugal also has some Cobalt and a lot of Nickel and Tungsten, which are also very important for batteries. There are several other countries in the world with unexplored reserves. Congo is being used because of cheap labor. The current price is speculative, when more mines are opened around the world the price will drop significantly and the abuses in Congo won't pay off any longer.

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6 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

You clearly have no idea about Berlin or the actual location of this proposed factory.

6 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

Unless of course you have any more brilliant ideas.

 

I don't but Elon does and his track record is better than mine or yours.   You seem to hate progress unless it is invented here.

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2 hours ago, catjones said:

 

I don't but Elon does and his track record is better than mine or yours.   You seem to hate progress unless it is invented here.

 

He also has a record of over-promising and under-delivering!

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It's surely just as easy to find unskilled labour on the outskirts of Berlin as it is in the desert near Reno NV?!

 

The catchment area for staff at that location stretches to the Polish border. The unemployment levels out that way are still relatively high. Tesla will have absolutely no problems getting staff for the factory and engineers want to work for them so they will relocate to Berlin.

 

If this project fails it will be for other reasons, not these.

 

Solar power is the future. We have a virtually limitless source of energy in the sun. In one hour the earth's surface is struck by more solar energy than the entire planet consumes in a whole year. Let that sink in. The vast majority of research effort should be aimed at more efficiently catching and storing that energy.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Solar power is the future. We have a virtually limitless source of energy in the sun. In one hour the earth's surface is struck by more solar energy than the entire planet consumes in a whole year. Let that sink in. The vast majority of research effort should be aimed at more efficiently catching and storing that energy.

 

As I have always said... its not about the production of electricity.. they key factor is finding a clean and efficient way of storing it!... 

 

The second major problem is once the solar collectors and storage become un-economical, where and how will they be recycled ?

 

The thrid major headache is the "power source" is a moving target, so to make the solar collectors efficient, they also need to be steerable.. 

 

If Musk wants to pull this off with his factory.. maybe he should be supplying all of his suppliers with E-Trucks to bring in the parts. 

 

I know that on Tuesday and Thursdays, there are an excessive amount of Lorries delivering parts to Bently in the UK that it causes major traffic delays for locals in the Crewe/Nantwich area... 

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14 hours ago, Keleth said:

Fucking hell what did I just listen to

 

Kind of reminds me of "Black Mirror" great series on Netflix.

 

 

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11 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Fair enough, although her point was regarding " electric cars aren’t environmentally friendly at all ", which encompasses raw material extraction, building and operating the vehicle.

But if you want to talk about environment impact of lithium extraction, then let's talk about oil extraction impact on the environment.

 

Let's summarize:

1- Lithium causes damages on:

- local site, extraction (most damaging part) on water contamination, soil contamination and to a less degree air contamination

- refining (local) (almost no contamination)

- transportation (almost no emissions, you only need a few kg per car)

- battery building (not much)

- battery disposal (not much, as it can be mostly recycled)

- usage (none!)

- number of times the process is repeated per car: ONCE!

 

2 - oil production causes damages on:

- local site (water contamination, air contamination, soil contamination, small earthquakes)

- transportation up to refinery (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk)

- refining (air pollution)

- transportation to destination country (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk) 

- transportation to destination pump/consumer (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk) 

- usage (air pollution)

- number of times the process is repeated per car: constantly!

 

This lithium FUD is ridiculous when you compare it to oil extraction impact.

 

This is where I wholeheartedly agree.

 

Fracking is the devil himself.

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I am thinking that if they build a new factory from scratch here they will most probably build it with state of the art robotic/automatisation thereby reducing number of needed unskilled labour. There probably will be a high demand in medium level technicians.  Catchment area is not only towards Franfurt/Oder but also down to Dresden. They will get enough people with a solid education in that area.  

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I wonder if MrMelga knows how much oil derived products go to build his car?

 

The oils and grease etc that are in the braking system,, CV vounts, bearings and Polyuretanes etc etc... 

 

As for the arguement about lead acid Car Batteries is a joke.... If my battery fails... I can get a replacement within 35 minutes ( Usually) and my day continues... You cant do that with an EV... 

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11 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

 

You clearly have no idea about Berlin or the actual location of this proposed factory.

 

It's all very well suggesting that people can move/relocate,  which is exactly why I am in Berlin,  but you cannot relocate to somewhere that basically has nowhere to relocate to.

 

We are talking of a former East German town that has a population of approx. 8,000, a train that runs every hour from Berlin and the nearest shopping centre is most probably Königs Wusterhausen 24km away or Groppiusstadt 30km towards Berlin. I'm not even going to bother listing the amount of hotels, restaurants or nearby attractions in the area it's embarrassing.

 

Whilst Tesla will be building it's proposed factory BER airport would/should of opened and with this comes the relocation of all or most of the staff from Berlin Tegel , add to this Tesla plans of employing 7-10,000 people there is no way with the current infrastructure that this region would be able to cope in 2 years.

 

Unless of course you have any more brilliant ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

You can add the reconstruction of the Stadtautobahn to that mess.   While it is not directly in the area, it is from up north until Spandauer Damm, we know that even one single car that breakdowns in the city motorway can cause a massive traffic jam in the whole city, the traffic in Berlin depends too much on the motorway.   The work will take seven years starting in 2023.   All I see is slowly more and more elements are added up to what might end up in a perfect storm.

 

11 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I've worked 2 years for oil & gas industry. The amount of investment in that industry is absolutely incredible. I am sure that when the investment is directed to lithium, they will find ways to mine it and reduce the impact on environment, if that is what it takes to get local officials approvals.

 

Just like the oil industry came up with fracking in the recent years.

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SP...using oil for plastics and lubricants are actually reasonable uses for it. Burning it for its energy and releasing millions of years old trapped carbon as CO2 is not any more.

 

A CV joint (if the boot is checked and replaced as due) will last the lifetime of the car!

 

EVs have no dirty engine oil and don't need a gearbox so there's no oil there either.

 

The sun is not a moving target really. There is variance throughout the day and year as to the position of the sun relative to the solar panel so you pick the best angle and take losses into account.

 

The amount of solar energy hitting the earth is about 9000 times more than we need for everything today and appliances are getting more efficient with time. An average house uses hardly any energy for lighting compared to 20 years ago since LEDs took over.

 

We can even convert electricity from the sun into synthetic fuels that could be used for things like aviation. It's all a matter of improving the efficiency of the conversions. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, murphaph said:

The sun is not a moving target really. There is variance throughout the day and year as to the position of the sun relative to the solar panel so you pick the best angle and take losses into account.

Erm... I will not comment on the other stuff as its not really worth arguing over..

 

But the fact that the sun does move makes it a moving target. 

 

The efficient acceptance angle of a solar panel is about 20°...  which means the panel will be working efficiently for only 1.5hrs out of about 13hrs of summer daylight time.. 

 

If photovoltaik is to become a player, then there needs to be an efficient was of moving the collectors or reflecting the suns energy.

 

I will try and log into my account and screenshot some Graphs of differences between each months energy production... 

 

Take a look here.. but I am sure you knew this anyway..

 

https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2013/04/how-does-a-solar-tracker-work/

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We'll agree to disagree but you're basing your argument on current PV panel tech. That will advance rapidly IMO. We are already able to buy 400W panels which was unheard of 5 years ago.

 

I'm planning a 10kwP installation on my roof at the moment. That will (even here at this latitude and with the installation being fixed) generate more energy in a year than my house consumes.

 

If I could only store the energy then even with current PV tech (and whose to say we won't have some nano tech that aligns itself without the entire panel moving) I would be energy independent.

 

In a generation I believe the roof of the average building will have PV built in during the build phase, with an easy upgrade path (standardised panel/tile sizes). I think once the storage catches up no dwelling house will need a mains connection even.

 

Solar energy is the future and it's the basis for all life on earth already (plants photosynthesise this energy and it passes on up through the feed chain, indeed even fossil fuels are derived from photosynthesis that took place millions of years ago). That's a pretty powerful energy source which we have ignored for too long because we had oil.

 

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13 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Actually, the largest lithium reserves in Europe are in Portugal, if not mistaken 10% of world's reserves. Now the interesting part is that the more they dig, the more they find, so some geologists say that Portugal could have the largest reserves on earth. There are also reserves in Czech republic. Those are not 3rd world countries.

I agree that closing down the power plants was stupid. Still, I think the future is solar micro generation, either at home, office buildings or at large shops, like IKEA already does.

 

Adding to your reply i would include Australia which has worlds second largest Lithium reserves and Australia is a stable democratic Country so i wont worry about human right issues involved in Lithium mining and using children.


For electricity generation we can use Solar and Wind which are clean sources, however its also important to remember that we can easily build clean/efficient power plants (from Coal etc...) than we can build clean/efficient ICE cars.

 

  • An electric motor has efficiency of almost 90+% whereas an ICE has theoretical max efficiency of 35% (rest is lost as heat), plus Torque in EV is almost instantaneous and there is  no loss of power due to power train. 

 

  • Another point to people who point out about Environment impact in manufacturing Parts of EV cars (as if there is no impact in making parts for traditional ICE cars!!) --- remember that EV car has roughly only 200+ parts as compared to 2000+ parts in ICE cars.

 

  • As the EV has much less moving parts there is also less maintenance required, so no need for Oil/Oil Filter change, almost no Brake change etc etc...

 

In my opinion,  EV is the future..only thing holding it back is the charging infrastructure and Battery capacity , both of which will improve in future, what is not so easy to change is the mindset of people specially some of the "Deutsche" 

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23 minutes ago, MechEng said:

 

 

  • Another point to people who point out about Environment impact in manufacturing Parts of EV cars (as if there is no impact in making parts for traditional ICE cars!!) --- remember that EV car has roughly only 200+ parts as compared to 2000+ parts in ICE cars.

 

  • As the EV has much less moving parts there is also less maintenance required, so no need for Oil/Oil Filter change, almost no Brake change etc etc...

 

So by moving "forward"... many many smaller companies that rely on providing services and parts will be forced to close...  

Definately a step forward!!   NOT 

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11 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

German students brainwashed by German news media, I guess. 

Since Germans invented and perfected the traditional ICE cars its naturally hard for them to accept a new technology such as an EV , and i say this with no malice towards the Germans or any other supporter of ICE cars. 

 

I regularly discuss with my colleagues about EV vs ICE issue and most Germans are burying their head in the sand so to speak!

Most of the people here are dead set against EVs ,and some of their reasons are valid such as Battery reach and Charging Infra, but most  still dont see the writing on the wall that ICE has to retire some point in the future, as eventually we will run out of Oil and in the process make a horrible impact on the planet  

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On 15/11/2019, 08:34:42, jeremytwo said:

 

 

 Musk isn't into space technology for the fun of it - Outer space, whether the Moon or asteroids, will be about the extraction and return of Rare Earth metals. 

 

(Sorry, can't get rid of the quote box)

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43 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Adding to your reply i would include Australia which has worlds second largest Lithium reserves and Australia is a stable democratic Country

 

So far but guaranteed the Chinese are eyeing it up and making sure the Aussies know who's got the financial clout in the future.

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