Berlin to get a Tesla Gigafactory

788 posts in this topic

15 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

...

a) You can produce electricity at home! You can´t do the same with Diesel

 

Not everybody will have this possibility as they don't own their home or live in an apartment (mostly in cities which can benefit most from EV).  And this assumes that after spending an extra xx thousand euros for an EV vehicle (compared to ICE today), that they then have enough money to spend another 8k - 10k on solar, or 12k - 15k for solar with a battery (which is what you really need)

Plus go through the hassle for negotiating the electricity, plus the hassle of the extra taxes every year and potential set-up a company to do this.  Plus pay extra for insurance for the panels.

 

Most people don't what to have to do that.

 

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b ) it will be cheaper for power plants to produce it because of economy of scale

 

Yes, because Germany only produces ~ 540 TWh of electricity today!

 

And according to this:

https://energypost.eu/the-impact-of-electric-vehicles-on-electricity-demand/

 

EVs will only account for 5% of Electricity demand by 2040.

 

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c) supermarkets will compete with cheap/free charging

 

Until it starts costing them too much, because people park and don't shop.  Or don't shop enough.  Or later they realise that they are just spreading their shopping over several days instead of doing it all at once and are actually spending the same amount per week. (People have limited budgets and can only eat a certain amount).

 

 

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d) companies will make it part of the incentive package, as they can negotiate better electricity prices

 

If their demand only increases 5% (as per above) then the prices will not be that much better.

 

 

 

 

BTW: 

I am not against EVs and believe that they are the future.  

But that at the moment hybrid fuels or hybrid self generating vehicles should be pushed to "fill the gap" until EVs are really ready.

 

I do believe we need to be more realistic.  if we hype something up and it then fails to live up to this hype then it puts people off and takes longer to be adopted or just gets rejected totally.

And I believe that we first need to sort out the electricity generation problem.  No point moving away from ICE just to get power from fossil fuel power stations instead.

(I am also interested to see how Germany will cope with no Nuclear and no Coal power stations, but that is another study).

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9 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Now behave, you took it out of context. What I said is that to make up for loss fuel taxes they could think of taxing everybody's electricity, which is just stupid because you can make your own, so it would backfire quickly.

 

 

You talk like electricity is not already taxed for everyone.

 

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stromsteuergesetz_(Deutschland)

 

 

 

8 hours ago, fraufruit said:

I don't get everyone trashing MM for being a Tesla fan. It's the same as a biker being a Harley or Honda fan. Or anyone being a BMW or Mercedes fan. I'm glad he is happy with his Tesla.

 

 

Maybe because he trashes every other alternative that is not Tesla.   A Honda fan that trashes everything non-Honda would probably be disliked by the fans of other brands  or the ones who for whatever reason do not buy Hondas.

 

Like muscle cars, a BMW M5 Competition might be a very good car, but it is 110.000 EUR so if all I can afford or all I am willing to invest is 30.000 EUR on a Mustang there is no reason for BMW fans to keep trashing my Mustang.  If they were true fans of muscle cars they would even appreciate the Mustang.  Of course there are fanbois everywhere.

 

1 hour ago, dj_jay_smith said:

Until it starts costing them too much, because people park and don't shop.  Or don't shop enough.

 

Then they can implement conditions very easily.  Like some already do with parking space, some do not charge at all, some charge but if you buy something you do not have to pay for the parking. 

 

1 hour ago, dj_jay_smith said:

Or later they realise that they are just spreading their shopping over several days instead of doing it all at once and are actually spending the same amount per week. (People have limited budgets and can only eat a certain amount).

 

The problem in retail is you have to check what the others are doing.  So if even if is costing you a lot but if you remove it it will deter people from coming to your shop and they will go somewhere else then they will have to suck it up.  

 

In retail you do whatever you have to do to bring your target market to the shop.

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15 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Taxing alcohol is stupid because you can make your own alcohol ... taxing food in restaurants is stupid because you can cook your own food ... and so on.


the price of food at a normal restaurant is limited by the fact that you can cheaply cook it at home, though. It would be far higher otherwise in our wonderful capitalist societies. Drinkable beer at home on the other hand is already too much of a challenge for me 😒

 

what Germany can easily do is tax the electricity you produce for your own use. They already do it (tax your own usage) if you’re selling the remaining into the net.

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1 minute ago, mtbiking said:

what Germany can easily do is tax the electricity you produce for your own use. They already do it if you’re selling the remaining into the net.

 

People who go through the trouble of selling their electricity to the net sell all what they produce.  Because they can sell it for more than they will have to buy for own consume.  At least people with older setups, I am not sure how it is nowadays for new installations.

 

P.S., I wonder how the man is going to tax me for electricity I produce for my own consume, it is off grid.   Maybe possible, but definitely not easy.

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2 minutes ago, Krieg said:

P.S., I wonder how the man is going to tax me for electricity I produce for my own consume, it is off grid.   Maybe possible, but definitely not easy.

If anyone can find a way it will be the taxman :)

8 minutes ago, Krieg said:

You talk like electricity is not already taxed for everyone.

Shush don`t tell him.

 

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1 minute ago, Krieg said:

 

People who go through the trouble of selling their electricity to the net sell all what they produce.  Because they can sell it for more than they will have to buy for own consume.  At least people with older setups, I am not sure how it is nowadays for new installations.

 

P.S., I wonder how the man is going to tax me for electricity I produce for my own consume, it is off grid.   Maybe possible, but definitely not easy.

 

not anymore. Nowadays for new installations you get paid a measly 9ct KWh. It makes sense you consume as much as you can and gat a battery of adequate size. We had an energy advisor visiting (the Amt pays most of the cost) and his recommendation was to cover the roof, buy a small battery for the house and a big battery in the form of an electric car. Selling doesn’t pay off in Germany at 9 ct when you buy at almost 30 ct.

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9 hours ago, Keleth said:

You quoted the article but did you read it ?

 

Of course I read it.  Did you? 

9 hours ago, Keleth said:

For example they don`t even know where the factory is going to be built.They don`t even know where the Trinkwasserschutzgebiet is going to be.

Of course they know where it is going to be built and where the Trinkwasserschutzgebiet is.  Here you are making shit up again. You should really learn to use Google. 

Tesla Plant:

https://www.bz-berlin.de/media/vorlage_2019

Trinkwasserschutzgebiet (determined in MARCH of this year - they didn't have time to read it?) :

https://bravors.brandenburg.de/br2/sixcms/media.php/68/GVBl_II_24_2019-Anlage-2.pdf

 

It took me five minutes to find that.  Much less time than the protesters took to make up a sign.  

 

9 hours ago, Keleth said:

Why do you think it is ok to skip this sort of thing in this case ?

 The land was designated "Industriegebiet" over ten years ago and no one protested then.  Why are they protesting now?  Could it be because they know they will be on TV if they do?

 

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„Die verweisen immer nur darauf, dass jetzt die Einspruchsfrist begonnen hat. Aber welcher Bürger liest sich denn die 56 Ordner mit den ganzen Unterlagen durch?“ Viele Einwände oder Befürchtungen ließen sich wahrscheinlich schon durch einen Faktencheck ausräumen, aber den habe es bislang nicht in ausreichendem Maße gegeben.

So they are protesting against something that they have not yet bothered to read through.  "I don't know what it is, but I am surely against it".  

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10 hours ago, Keleth said:

Yep because at the moment they don`t make much profit eh.

You will see much more competition in the future in the energy sector. Because small companies with solar farms will be able to compete against huge power plants.

 

10 hours ago, Keleth said:

But you can make your own now so why do Electricity companies even exist anymore.Why do people pay for it when they could make their own.Apparently at the moment tax on electricity is at 51% of the price.

There will always be a minimum of grid energy, but you will see many companies and houses become independent.

The big paradigm shift is that you don´t need huge power plants any longer. Small scale wind/solar/hydro plants, coupled with batteries, will completely disrupt the energy market, kill most of the old power plants (especially coal and gas) and lower the prices.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

P.S., I wonder how the man is going to tax me for electricity I produce for my own consume, it is off grid.   Maybe possible, but definitely not easy.

In 2015 Portugal introduced a law to regulate self production. Up to 1500W max, nothing has to be done. Above that, you need an inspection from authorities and then the law is not clear, but you might have to pay (!!!!!) the state for energy that you produce.

Of course if this is happening inside your house, you can tell them to fuck off easily. They will try, they will get something out of it, but inside the house it is really hard to control. They could measure the area of solar panels on the roof, but high end installations are already using solar tiles, which you cannot distinguish from normal tiles.

Then there is the legality of taxing what you are self producing, I think this would not hold in EU court.

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21 minutes ago, jeremytwo said:

Oh dear... Mr Elon (Green) Musk has begun to chop trees down for his new factory:

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/tesla-cutting-down-thousands-trees-put-its-german-gigafactory-4

 

some people held a "Forest Walk" to protest the felling:

 

They had better be careful that they don't step on any old munitions.

 

That is actually a pretty awesome record if those are the only deaths related to Teslas.  Now do you have the figures for the Honda Accord for comparison?

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4 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

In 2015 Portugal introduced a law to regulate self production. Up to 1500W max, nothing has to be done. Above that, you need an inspection from authorities and then the law is not clear, but you might have to pay (!!!!!) the state for energy that you produce.

Of course if this is happening inside your house, you can tell them to fuck off easily. They will try, they will get something out of it, but inside the house it is really hard to control. They could measure the area of solar panels on the roof, but high end installations are already using solar tiles, which you cannot distinguish from normal tiles.

Then there is the legality of taxing what you are self producing, I think this would not hold in EU court.

On the sunniest of days, my 4x 250W panels produce about 5 kw of power.... Not very much at all.... 

 

Have we discussed where the electric comes from for German Ecars?   Braunkohl?  Nuclear? where? 
 

solarjan.png

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39 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

 

Have we discussed where the electric comes from for German Ecars?   Braunkohl?  Nuclear? where? 

 

 

Probably from abroad. Imported from countries with nuclear power stations (France)?

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1 hour ago, SpiderPig said:

On the sunniest of days, my 4x 250W panels produce about 5 kw of power... Not very much at all... 

 

 

Your 1 kW panels produced 5 kW. Where did the difference came from?

A subvention from the German goverment?

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5 hours ago, jeremytwo said:

Oh dear... Mr Elon (Green) Musk has begun to chop trees down for his new factory:

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/tesla-cutting-down-thousands-trees-put-its-german-gigafactory-4

 

some people held a "Forest Walk" to protest the felling

 


Some people have too much time in their hands. Besides in Germany there are (of course) laws regulating how a private individual or company has to compensate the cutting down of a tree or forest by replanting the equivalent. 

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21 minutes ago, AnswerToLife42 said:

Your 1 kW panels produced 5 kW. Where did the difference came from?

A subvention from the German goverment?

You clearly have zero idea...

 

A Solar panel is rated on its maximum output per hour.. so the absolute max that my system could produce in one hour is 4x250w  which totals 1 kw... over the whole daythe max that they have produced is 5 kw...   

 

got it?     You were begining to sound like MrMelga... :rolleyes:

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13 hours ago, SpiderPig said:
14 hours ago, catjones said:

 

Criticizing Elon is easy because he stands out from the crowd.  Puts Other peoples  money where his mouth is.  

 

 

Fixed it for you...

 

Actually, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

" Elon Musk is Tesla's largest investor, owning approximately 22% of shares. He is also the CEO and lead architect of the firm and original founder"

" Elon Musk is the majority owner of SpaceX, holding about 54% of the private company, which is valued at approximately $33.3 billion."

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1 hour ago, SpiderPig said:

You clearly have zero idea...

 

A Solar panel is rated on its maximum output per hour.. so the absolute max that my system could produce in one hour is 4x250w  which totals 1 kw... over the whole daythe max that they have produced is 5 kw...   

 

got it?     You were begining to sound like MrMelga... :rolleyes:

Your solar panels produced 5kWh over the day! Or for people from the island 17000btu.

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6 minutes ago, catjones said:

 

Actually, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I wasnt aware of his exact past... but having done a quick google...  I stand corrected...  

 

I still wont buy one of his cars though!   :lol:

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