Tesla Gigafactories, News and Conversation

1,558 posts in this topic

 

28 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

- 600-700€ fuel costs

How does that fit into repair savings ?

29 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Tesla has historically a low depreciation and the Model 3 seems to have even much less than Model S, although not enough data is available.

Maybe because they only have a small share of the market so not too many about 2nd hand ?

 

On another point how many people believe that once EVs become the norm that tax breaks,free or dirt cheap charging are going to remain the norm ?

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22 minutes ago, Keleth said:

On another point how many people believe that once EVs become the norm that tax breaks,free or dirt cheap charging are going to remain the norm ?

Same as with solar panels or LED lights, as the cost per unit went down, so did the subsidies.  As the price of EVs drop, so will the subsidies because they will no longer be necessary.  

 

Free charging might go away or maybe companies will like the idea of attracting customers.  Other charging will follow the price of electricity, which is likely to go up but no where near as much as oil prices. 

 

Glad that you have accepted that EVs will become the norm, though...

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1 hour ago, BradinBayern said:

Free charging might go away or maybe companies will like the idea of attracting customers.  Other charging will follow the price of electricity, which is likely to go up but no where near as much as oil prices. 

 

Buildings with roof real estate could just be filled up with solar panels, the building (supermarket, shopping center, factories, offices, workplaces, government building, car shops, hotels, amenity parks, etc) could then use the electricity for their own consume and burn the excess as free car charging for customers and employees.   Costs of solar panel infrastructure and maintenance could be offset from taxes.  Solar panels for roofing will finally someday look like normal roofs (what Tesla has being trying and failing at for a while).

 

I assume it is really going to be like that because it looks pretty obvious to me.

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1 hour ago, Keleth said:

 

How does that fit into repair savings ?

I said "Overall", not only maintenance.

 

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

Maybe because they only have a small share of the market so not too many about 2nd hand ?

Because they are cheap to run.

 

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

 

On another point how many people believe that once EVs become the norm that tax breaks,free or dirt cheap charging are going to remain the norm ?

Taxes will increase for sure. Free or dirty cheap charging will remain, because:

a) You can produce electricity at home! You can´t do the same with Diesel

b ) it will be cheaper for power plants to produce it because of economy of scale

c) supermarkets will compete with cheap/free charging

d) companies will make it part of the incentive package, as they can negotiate better electricity prices

 

Right now you get 10 year circulation tax break guarantee.

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Protests against the plant:

 

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/demo-sonnabend-in-gruenheide-gegner-und-befuerworter-protestieren-vor-der-geplanten-tesla-fabrik/25447790.html

 

On one hand, this is ridiculous.  In freakin' Brandenburg, they are protesting a new employer?  It seems they are just upset that the approvals weren't long and bureaucratic enough. 

 

On the other hand, isn't there an empty industrial complex somewhere in Brandenburg that Tesla could just flatten and rebuild? Seems there are plenty when I drove through. Of course that would be more complex and expensive than building in an empty field, the current site isn't so great either; they have to deal with old munitions and trees.  Would be a win-win.  The community would get rid of an eyesore and Tesla would have no protesters.  

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In the US, gasoline taxes pay for the roads, infrastructure.  As EVs increase and gas engines decrease, the gov will be looking for ways to pay for those costs of driving.  Like most tech, there is a "golden" era and then "reality" sets in.

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11 minutes ago, catjones said:

In the US, gasoline taxes pay for the roads, infrastructure.  As EVs increase and gas engines decrease, the gov will be looking for ways to pay for those costs of driving.  Like most tech, there is a "golden" era and then "reality" sets in.

That´s a great question. In Europe, gas taxes are mostly for the state budget, only a small percentage goes for infrastructure.

My guess is that they will not be able to replace it with an EV tax and instead compensate it with other taxes.

They can increase circulation tax, but that is a stupid tax, as it is not proportional to how much you drive. Also it would put a heavy yearly burden, instead of a constant weekly burden, so a lot of people would not be able to pay it.

 

Taxing electricity is stupid, because you can simply install solar panels.

 

So my guess is higher income taxes or other car-unrelated taxes.

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33 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

On the other hand, isn't there an empty industrial complex somewhere in Brandenburg that Tesla could just flatten and rebuild? Seems there are plenty when I drove through. Of course that would be more complex and expensive than building in an empty field, the current site isn't so great either; they have to deal with old munitions and trees.  Would be a win-win.  The community would get rid of an eyesore and Tesla would have no protesters.  

I guess that it should be asked to the local authorities, I doubt that Tesla picked up the site by themselves.

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9 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Taxing electricity is stupid, because you can simply install solar panels.

 

 

 

What a fucking stupid statement...

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11 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Taxing electricity is stupid, because you can simply install solar panels.

 

Taxing alcohol is stupid because you can make your own alcohol ... taxing food in restaurants is stupid because you can cook your own food ... and so on.

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2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

a) You can produce electricity at home! You can´t do the same with Diesel

 

Not if you live in an apartment house as most people do in Germany. Most roof space is rented out for antennas, etc. Maybe room for a few solar panels but that wouldn't be enough to charge all cars.

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5 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Taxing alcohol is stupid because you can make your own alcohol ... taxing food in restaurants is stupid because you can cook your own food ... and so on.

Now behave, you took it out of context. What I said is that to make up for loss fuel taxes they could think of taxing everybody's electricity, which is just stupid because you can make your own, so it would backfire quickly.

 

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5 hours ago, fraufruit said:

 

Not if you live in an apartment house as most people do in Germany. Most roof space is rented out for antennas, etc. Maybe room for a few solar panels but that wouldn't be enough to charge all cars.

Antennas don't make much shade on the solar panels, you can cover the whole roof. Of course a thin tall building won't be able to produce much, unless you start placing them on the south facade.

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9 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

Same as with solar panels or LED lights, as the cost per unit went down, so did the subsidies.  As the price of EVs drop, so will the subsidies because they will no longer be necessary.  

 

Free charging might go away or maybe companies will like the idea of attracting customers.  Other charging will follow the price of electricity, which is likely to go up but no where near as much as oil prices. 

 

Glad that you have accepted that EVs will become the norm, though...

If you read through this thread I`ve always accepted they will be the norm and mostly welcome them.What I have always been against is people thinking that is it once we have them no need to go to anything else and the fact that MM thinks Tesla is the be all and end all of EVs and slagging off every other EV from other companies.

6 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

Protests against the plant:

 

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/demo-sonnabend-in-gruenheide-gegner-und-befuerworter-protestieren-vor-der-geplanten-tesla-fabrik/25447790.html

 

On one hand, this is ridiculous.  In freakin' Brandenburg, they are protesting a new employer?  It seems they are just upset that the approvals weren't long and bureaucratic enough. 

 

You quoted the article but did you read it ?

You have to keep both sides happy with this sort of thing not just think "oh more jobs etc lets just build it".For example they don`t even know where the factory is going to be built.They don`t even know where the Trinkwasserschutzgebiet is going to be.

Why do you think it is ok to skip this sort of thing in this case ?

I`m still sceptical if it will even be built.Musk announced it seemingly off the cuff while in Berlin and nothing has been signed or officially announce about specific placement etc.

They mention in the article that it may not have been signed because of the protests.Does anyone actually believe a few protestors have any influence on Musk,it never has before.

26 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Antennas don't make much shade on the solar panels, you can cover the whole roof. Of course a thin tall building won't be able to produce much, unless you start placing them on the south facade.

If every apartment owner agrees to it yes you could cover the whole roof.

And if you live in a rented apartment and the landlord won`t pay etc then you`re fucked.

8 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

it will be cheaper for power plants to produce it because of economy of scale

Yep because at the moment they don`t make much profit eh.

31 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

What I said is that to make up for loss fuel taxes they could think of taxing everybody's electricity, which is just stupid because you can make your own, so it would backfire quickly.

 

But you can make your own now so why do Electricity companies even exist anymore.Why do people pay for it when they could make their own.Apparently at the moment tax on electricity is at 51% of the price.

8 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

supermarkets will compete with cheap/free charging

They may.

Its called a loss leader by the way which is to bring in the customers.Even though many supermarkets (In Uk don`t know about in Germany etc)make nothing on petrol prices or even a loss they make the money back on the items in their shops,so one way or another your paying for your saving.

8 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I said "Overall", not only maintenance.

Yep sorry you did in your original quote but the post you answered asked about repair costs.

 

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9 minutes ago, Keleth said:

And if you live in a rented apartment and the landlord won`t pay etc then you`re fucked.

 

This is what I was referring to when mentioning the majority living in apartments. We have a great landlord/hausverwaltung but can't see them laying out the dosh for such a thing unless all renters begged for it. Even then, I'm sure they would raise the rent.

 

I don't get everyone trashing MM for being a Tesla fan. It's the same as a biker being a Harley or Honda fan. Or anyone being a BMW or Mercedes fan. I'm glad he is happy with his Tesla.

 

I'm pro EV and Himself is against. Hopefully our 9 yr. old Skoda will last for another ten years before we have to make a choice. I think I can convince him by then. In all the conversations that I hear, most Gemans are against EV's but I'm around mostly over 50 yr. olds.

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Just now, fraufruit said:

I don't get everyone trashing MM for being a Tesla fan

No problem with being a fan of it.

But trashing other companies EVs basically because they`re not Tesla.

Also we know if the factory falls through it will all be the fault of German Bureaucracy.

2 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

This is what I was referring to when mentioning the majority living in apartments.

I honestly don`t know if MM knows that such a thing as renters exist.He thinks because he has plenty of money then everyone else should have and if they haven`t then it`s either their own fault or they`re just an insignificance.You notice how his answer straight away was fill the roof of the apartment block with solar panels without even thinking of someone not owning their house or apartment.

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5 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

In all the conversations that I hear, most Gemans are against EV's but I'm around mostly over 50 yr. olds.

Yes but then we know Germans are also very resistant to change.

Most of the people I`m around (yep over 50`s too) don`t seem to be against it more that they don`t think it can work.

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10 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Taxing alcohol is stupid because you can make your own alcohol ... taxing food in restaurants is stupid because you can cook your own food ... and so on.

 

I think the analogy falls short; you are installing a solar panel that produces the electricity.  Nevertheless, the comments center on today's technology and not the ingenuity of the future including production, transmission, storage and recycling.  If any of these limit the growth of EVs they will be overcome.  Perhaps not at first with the most elegant solution, but that too will come in time.  Anyone programming an IBM 360 mainframe would not even believe a smartphone, yet both are well within a lifetime.  Criticizing Elon is easy because he stands out from the crowd.  Puts his money where his mouth is.  He even challenges the brief lifespan of rocketry with innovation.  Some germans can't see the trees for the forest.

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1 hour ago, catjones said:

 

Criticizing Elon is easy because he stands out from the crowd.  Puts Other peoples  money where his mouth is.  

 

 

Fixed it for you...

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16 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

Buildings with roof real estate could just be filled up with solar panels,...

 

Of course you need enough sun to make this worth while.  Which leads me to this interesting map:

 

Sunshine hours Europe vs USA.

 

83233721_2694241817358135_76056722397441

 

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