Berlin to get a Tesla Gigafactory

354 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, Sir Percy B said:

 

Highly skilled jobs need highly skilled people, exactly where will these all come from?

 

There's already a shortage of  IT specialists, engineers and craftsmen in the construction industry, experts in aerospace, mechatronics, electrical engineering, energy technology and other STEM professions and you're not going to fill these positions from people living in this corner of Brandenburg.

 

 

He has a point.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

They are misinformed. The extra pollution required to build them is offset within a year or two of usage, depending on mileage. This is a myth created by the German media to support the German auto industry.

https://electrek.co/2017/11/01/electric-cars-dirty-electricicty-coal-emission-cleaner-study/

 

It`s the environmental impact in relation to lithium that they consider the problem not pollution as such.

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58 minutes ago, Sir Percy B said:

 

Highly skilled jobs need highly skilled people, exactly where will these all come from?

 

There's already a shortage of  IT specialists, engineers and craftsmen in the construction industry, experts in aerospace, mechatronics, electrical engineering, energy technology and other STEM professions and you're not going to fill these positions from people living in this corner of Brandenburg.

 

 

 

They are going to retrain Berlin hipsters and artists.  Just like the UK is going to retrain Brit unemployed after Brexit.

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3 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

They are going to retrain Berlin hipsters and artists.  Just like the UK is going to retrain Brit unemployed after Brexit.

 

I would pay good money to watch that :lol:

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Musk isn't entirely stupid though. Berlin is an attractive city for many people. It'll be a lot easier attracting engineers there than some more provincial location.

 

The vast bulk of the employees in the factory won't be engineers of course. There's still a lot of unskilled labour required to build a car.

 

The R&D facility is supposedly going to Berlin proper, not the site of the factory. That would be a real jewel for Berlin. Berlin is the birthplace of Siemens and AEG. The city has electric transport pedigree. Have a little faith.

 

 

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11 hours ago, jeremytwo said:

Don't wish to pee on Mr Musks's bonfire and be the little boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes" but...

 

All these Teslas and poor little Greta etc kind of ignore something. Resources. These batteries require lithium which is mined in the third world by child labour. Also, with the utter cock up of Germany's energy policy by Angie (shutting down the nuclear reactors in 2011 after the Fukushima disaster was utterly stupid) - from where is the energy going to come from in the next 20 years? Germany has none of its own and the Dutch gas superfield is about to run dry.

 

Now you start to understand why Ukraine is one of the most important countries in the world right now.

 

 

A: The proposed Nord Stream 2  pipeline under the Baltic Sea will supply Russian gas. 

 

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3 hours ago, Keleth said:

A lot of the naysaying is in reaction to it being Musk and his reputation especially his relationship with his employees.

 

Are you referring to the drones who work at Tesla, SpaceX, The Boring Company, Neuralink, OpenAI or his past with PayPal?  

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2 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

Highly skilled jobs need highly skilled people, exactly where will these all come from?

 

2 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

you're not going to fill these positions from people living in this corner of Brandenburg.

 

Check out "Working in the EU".  Some people (perhaps not sir percy) would be willing to relocate for a chance to work for a cutting edge company.  That means moving from where you are to someplace else.

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2 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

They are going to retrain Berlin hipsters and artists.  Just like the UK is going to retrain Brit unemployed after Brexit.

IIRC in the 60's the UK government of the time had the great idea of building a new car factory up in Scotland. I think it was Rootes Group building the Hillman Imp. They employed former militant shipbuilders with bad attitudes and no idea how to build cars, that led to poor quality and reliability issues.

So don't hoöd your breath about Tesla.

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14 minutes ago, catjones said:

Check out "Working in the EU".  Some people (perhaps not sir percy) would be willing to relocate for a chance to work for a cutting edge company.  That means moving from where you are to someplace else.

 

You clearly have no idea about Berlin or the actual location of this proposed factory.

 

It's all very well suggesting that people can move/relocate,  which is exactly why I am in Berlin,  but you cannot relocate to somewhere that basically has nowhere to relocate to.

 

We are talking of a former East German town that has a population of approx. 8,000, a train that runs every hour from Berlin and the nearest shopping centre is most probably Königs Wusterhausen 24km away or Groppiusstadt 30km towards Berlin. I'm not even going to bother listing the amount of hotels, restaurants or nearby attractions in the area it's embarrassing.

 

Whilst Tesla will be building it's proposed factory BER airport would/should of opened and with this comes the relocation of all or most of the staff from Berlin Tegel , add to this Tesla plans of employing 7-10,000 people there is no way with the current infrastructure that this region would be able to cope in 2 years.

 

Unless of course you have any more brilliant ideas.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Keleth said:

It`s the environmental impact in relation to lithium that they consider the problem not pollution as such.

Fair enough, although her point was regarding " electric cars aren’t environmentally friendly at all ", which encompasses raw material extraction, building and operating the vehicle.

But if you want to talk about environment impact of lithium extraction, then let's talk about oil extraction impact on the environment.

 

Let's summarize:

1- Lithium causes damages on:

- local site, extraction (most damaging part) on water contamination, soil contamination and to a less degree air contamination

- refining (local) (almost no contamination)

- transportation (almost no emissions, you only need a few kg per car)

- battery building (not much)

- battery disposal (not much, as it can be mostly recycled)

- usage (none!)

- number of times the process is repeated per car: ONCE!

 

2 - oil production causes damages on:

- local site (water contamination, air contamination, soil contamination, small earthquakes)

- transportation up to refinery (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk)

- refining (air pollution)

- transportation to destination country (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk) 

- transportation to destination pump/consumer (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk) 

- usage (air pollution)

- number of times the process is repeated per car: constantly!

 

This lithium FUD is ridiculous when you compare it to oil extraction impact.

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3 hours ago, Sir Percy B said:

 

Highly skilled jobs need highly skilled people, exactly where will these all come from?

 

There's already a shortage of  IT specialists, engineers and craftsmen in the construction industry, experts in aerospace, mechatronics, electrical engineering, energy technology and other STEM professions and you're not going to fill these positions from people living in this corner of Brandenburg.

On the Tesla Reddit section, an engineer from Denmark was already asking where he could apply. He would gladly move to Berlin.

SpaceX and Tesla receive 1.5 million applications for jobs per year. They have ZERO issues with finding the best people.

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1 minute ago, MikeMelga said:

Fair enough, although her point was regarding " electric cars aren’t environmentally friendly at all ", which encompasses raw material extraction, building and operating the vehicle.

But if you want to talk about environment impact of lithium extraction, then let's talk about oil extraction impact on the environment.

 

Let's summarize:

1- Lithium causes damages on:

- local site, extraction (most damaging part) on water contamination, soil contamination and to a less degree air contamination

- refining (local) (almost no contamination)

- transportation (almost no emissions, you only need a few kg per car)

- battery building (not much)

- battery disposal (not much, as it can be mostly recycled)

- usage (none!)

- number of times the process is repeated per car: ONCE!

 

2 - oil production causes damages on:

- local site (water contamination, air contamination, soil contamination, small earthquakes)

- transportation up to refinery (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk)

- refining (air pollution)

- transportation to destination country (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk) 

- transportation to destination pump/consumer (transportation emissions, spillage/fire risk) 

- usage (air pollution)

- number of times the process is repeated per car: constantly!

 

This lithium FUD is ridiculous when you compare it to oil extraction impact.

Yer it`s better than oil but people need to get away from the idea it is environmentally friendly.

If no more advances are made (as they seemed to do when they found oil was a cash cow) then in the future the planet will be just as fucked but in a different way.

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Just now, MikeMelga said:

On the Tesla Reddit section, an engineer from Denmark was already asking where he could apply. He would gladly move to Berlin.

SpaceX and Tesla receive 1.5 million applications for jobs per year. They have ZERO issues with finding the best people.

I think his point was that you aren`t going to find many local people for that side of it.

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Just now, Keleth said:

Yer it`s better than oil but people need to get away from the idea it is environmentally friendly.

If no more advances are made (as they seemed to do when they found oil was a cash cow) then in the future the planet will be just as fucked but in a different way.

I've worked 2 years for oil & gas industry. The amount of investment in that industry is absolutely incredible. I am sure that when the investment is directed to lithium, they will find ways to mine it and reduce the impact on environment, if that is what it takes to get local officials approvals.

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1 minute ago, MikeMelga said:

I've worked 2 years for oil & gas industry. The amount of investment in that industry is absolutely incredible. I am sure that when the investment is directed to lithium, they will find ways to mine it and reduce the impact on environment, if that is what it takes to get local officials approvals.

Yep but how long have they actually concentrated that investment on the environmental impact rather than concentrating on making it cheaper to extract.

For god knows how many years it was "oh look liquid gold let`s get it"

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13 hours ago, jeremytwo said:

Don't wish to pee on Mr Musks's bonfire and be the little boy in "The Emperor's New Clothes" but...

 

All these Teslas and poor little Greta etc kind of ignore something. Resources. These batteries require lithium which is mined in the third world by child labour. Also, with the utter cock up of Germany's energy policy by Angie (shutting down the nuclear reactors in 2011 after the Fukushima disaster was utterly stupid) - from where is the energy going to come from in the next 20 years? Germany has none of its own and the Dutch gas superfield is about to run dry.

 

Now you start to understand why Ukraine is one of the most important countries in the world right now.

Actually, the largest lithium reserves in Europe are in Portugal, if not mistaken 10% of world's reserves. Now the interesting part is that the more they dig, the more they find, so some geologists say that Portugal could have the largest reserves on earth. There are also reserves in Czech republic. Those are not 3rd world countries.

I agree that closing down the power plants was stupid. Still, I think the future is solar micro generation, either at home, office buildings or at large shops, like IKEA already does.

 

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1 minute ago, Keleth said:

Yep but how long have they actually concentrated that investment on the environmental impact rather than concentrating on making it cheaper to extract.

For god knows how many years it was "oh look liquid gold let`s get it"

My work for the oil industry was to help build a ship designed for deep sea oil operations, especially well repairs. If this ship had been around when "Deepwater horizon" happened, the disaster would have been prevented. This ship alone costed over $400M to develop. It's not that oil companies care, it's that they don't want to pay astronomical fees in damage compensation.

 

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5 hours ago, catjones said:

It didn't take long for the naysayers to show up.  American company brings the latest in technology and highly skilled jobs to Germany and the response is:

 

 

 

 

 

and then, out of the other side of their mouths, bemoan the lack of high-tech jobs...just can't win.

I was actually excited about the prospect about electric cars until my students squashed it. Actually by the time the semester was over, I was somewhat depressed as they made it seems as though there’s no solution 😭

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