Tesla Gigafactories, News and Conversation

[MikeMelga 7,255]

5 hours ago, Keleth said:

But the only reason they won´t be able to compete is because the companies want a high profit margin.

Lol, no, it's not a decision between high and low profit. It's a decision between survival and bankrupcy.

 

5 hours ago, Keleth said:

What you have here and in many cases is a company deciding they need to cut workers (always their first thought) to maintain their profit margin.They cut as many as they possibly can without reducing production.

It´s not that often workers are let go because the company is losing money,it´s mostly so profit margins can be maintained.

Have you seen the revolutionary Gigapress? That machine reduces the size of a factory by 30-40%. And it reduces the area where more workers are needed.

Not only do EVs need less workers, the Gigapress will remove even more.

Then there is the problem of skills. VW does not need so many mechanical engineers. Nor specialized factory workers whose skills are not needed for EVs.

 

5 hours ago, Keleth said:

I´m all in favour of EVs,they are the future.However I`m not in favour of those EVs being solely Teslas which a couple of people on here seem to want.

When a company brings out a new EV it´s a good thing,when it fails well that´s what happens with new stuff.I want all new EVs to succeed not matter who builds them but people in this thread do nothing but destroy any new EV that´s not made by Tesla.

I'm in favor of saving the European automotive industry. Closing your eyes to the problem won't help.

[MikeMelga 7,255]

3 hours ago, dstanners said:

The point is what to do with those thousands of people. That is where hopefully some sort of re-training towards either software or electricity storage/generation (both of which areas are likely to be more relevant and necessary for EV production) could be the answer.

 

Battery factories. Unfortunately VW and Bosch refused to enter this field 5 years ago. And now the chinese control it.

[BethAnnBitt 2,909]

27 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Lol, no, it's not a decision between high and low profit. It's a decision between survival and bankrupcy.

True!

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Then there is the problem of skills. VW does not need so many mechanical engineers. Nor specialized factory workers whose skills are not needed for EVs.

German companies are often loath to switch gears, even when the handwriting is on the wall.  A close friend of mine, an engineer in SF, worked for Zeiss.  She said even when the ship would be sinking they wanted to „stick to the plan“.

Drove her 🥜.  

[catjones 1,660]

5 hours ago, BethAnnBitt said:

German companies are often loath to switch gears, even when the handwriting is on the wall.

 

It's theater.  Show the workers how you are struggling against all odds to keep them employed and then, at the breaking point, fire them...even though you knew the outcome from the start.  How much money will the german state kick in to keep these people employed and off the dole?  That's the question german automakers will be asking..if they haven't already.

[Keleth 9,279]

6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

You and your ultra-friends at the unions are the typical shortsighted who will bring the German auto industry down.

Kind of funny how Germanys ultra(?) unions are quite strong and have got their workers good rights compared to many other countries yet German industry is some of the best and profitable in the world.

This isn't fucking Portugal.

6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Not to mention equal amount of workers in supplier companies!

Didn´t you mention they need to stop relying on suppliers anyway so that´s a moot point.

6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Have you seen the revolutionary Gigapress?

Well you´ve mentioned it a few thousand times in this thread so yes is the answer to that.

If it is so cost saving as you say then why are Teslas so damn expensive?

26 minutes ago, catjones said:

It's theater. 

Nope it´s an ingrained German attitude.

Germans as a whole do not like change,their attitude is we´ve done it this way for hundreds of years so why change.

Look at how many Germans are stuck in the old ways even in something as minor as different food they don´t like trying new stuff full stop.

[Keleth 9,279]

 

6 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

And this is why some people are good managers and others drag companies to bankrupcy: shortsighted

This is where your arrogance misses the point.

Your first thought is how many people do we need to get rid of.

Your first thought is not how many people do we need to get rid of and how can we retrain or help those people. 

I do not disagree that the auto industry needs to shed jobs but I do think of how those who lose their jobs can be helped in the future whereas you basically want them gone from the industry to save money.

 

[fraufruit 41,975]

I can't follow. I've never seen MM wish for one person to be out of a job. Big corporations fire/lay off thousands of employees all the time and have done for years. Yes, bottom line but that doesn't make BMV exceptional. Happens ALL THE TIME.

[CincyInDE 3,241]

8 hours ago, Keleth said:

Isn´t it at the moment with the incentives from stadt virtually a cost free exercise?

 

Not cost free but greatly reduced.  The Feds will give you 900€ to install certain 11kW Wallboxes.  The Wallbox + running cable through 7 walls + labor, etc. cost us 2500€ -900€ == 1600€ in Schwarzwald. Substantial savings, yes, but not cost-free. 

 

The more difficult part was getting the Verwalter and the other owners to not be problematic.  Our Verwalter happens to be a nice totally reasonable guy, which is something special considering his name is Adolf.  The new WEMoG (Wohnungseigentumsmodernisierungsgesetz) basically says every homeowner has the right to install charging infrastructure at his or her own expense.  This does not mean that stick-in-the-mud neighbors won't make the process long, hard, and arduous. 

 

FrauFruit's situation is likely worse, since it involves a Hausverwaltung, which are usually spread thin and therefore put forth the absolute least effort possible to maintain their contracts.  But if her Hvw are on the level about installing the infrastructure, that's great. 

 

For our place in Munich we are hoping to get Stadtwerke München to install a charging station at our parking spot in the garage.  In order for that to happen, our Hausverwaltung will have to play nice with SWM -- something I am NOT counting on.  But hey, maybe I'll be surprised.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fraufruit 41,975]

21 minutes ago, CincyInDE said:

For our place in Munich we are hoping to get Stadtwerke München to install a charging station at our parking spot in the garage.

 

You don't mean a Tiefgarage, do you? My understanding is that they are a fire hazard for underground garages and not allowed.

[CincyInDE 3,241]

6 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

You don't mean a Tiefgarage, do you? My understanding is that they are a fire hazard for underground garages and not allowed.

 

Yes, in a Tiefgarage.  Everything is a fire hazard to a certain extent, and electric cars are no more dangerous than cars filled with gallons of flammable liquids. Where did you hear such nonsense?  A neighbor who works for BMW? 

 

Cars with pressurized gas tanks are forbidden as far as I know (LPG / Autogas). 

 

Here is a photo from SWM's website:

 

[fraufruit 41,975]

The fire hazard isn't the cars themselves but the chargers. ICE cars catch fire a lot more than EV's.

 

Now I'm trying to remember where I read this or who told me.

 

Will you be paying for all of the installation yourself?

[snowingagain 5,214]

Apartment we just bought has Tiefgarage, we had option to have a E car power hook up.

 

 

[CincyInDE 3,241]

Yes, there are costs involved, but the city covers 40% of installation and the monthly rental (but not the electricity Pauschal)  Look at the detailed costs on SWM'S website.

 

The thing that charges a car (converts AC into DC for the battery) is always part of the car.  The charging station is remarkably simple.  It negotiates with the car how much juice to send, then it does just that.  When the charging is done, the car sends a stop signal and the wallbox stops until the car says go again. 

 

If you want to geek out, watch this video for a VERY good, albeit VERY pedantic explanation of EVSEs (Wallboxes in German).

 

 

[CincyInDE 3,241]

5 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

Apartment we just bought has Tiefgarage, we had option to have a E car power hook up.

 

 

 

Does it hook up to the electric meter for your apartment?  That is ideal but not necessarily scalable. 

[fraufruit 41,975]

Thanks so much, Cincy!

 

Himself's concern is that the HVW has the last word and if we move out we have to put it all back to the original condition. We are renting.

[CincyInDE 3,241]

8 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

Thanks so much, Cincy!

 

Himself's concern is that the HVW has the last word and if we move out we have to put it all back to the original condition. We are renting.

 

Removal is certainly a concern.  In the place we own we had to put that into the Beschluss for the WEG that we would pay to remove everything if we sold and the new owner didn't want it. 

 

If your building is a WEG (yes, I see you're renting), then it still has to go through a vote of the Eigentümerversammlung.  Renters also have rights, though.  Check out this page from ADAC. 

 

The solution from SWM is kind of expensive, but to be honest my monthly electricity costs for the car are approaching the monthly cost of being able to charge from my parking spot with the SWM solution.

[fraufruit 41,975]

5 minutes ago, CincyInDE said:

then it still has to go through a vote of the Eigentümerversammlung

 

Nope. No owners. The HVW owns the building and others.

 

We are more interested in our carbon footprint, not the cost of charging a car. It will certainly be cheaper than the current fuel prices, though. The Hyundai Iconiq 5 that we are looking at also has solar panels. We are parked outside in the sun all summer at our marina. There is also free charging there.

 

I don't think that the house owner will have any problem renting out our garage space with EV capability. He can even charge more but we are not the boss of him.

 

Thanks again.

[snowingagain 5,214]

34 minutes ago, CincyInDE said:

 

Does it hook up to the electric meter for your apartment?  That is ideal but not necessarily scalable. 

Did not go for option, as do not have a car, let alone an electric one.  But I guess as a new build block, that is how it would work.

[MikeMelga 7,255]

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

 

This is where your arrogance misses the point.

Your first thought is how many people do we need to get rid of.

Your first thought is not how many people do we need to get rid of and how can we retrain or help those people. 

Because the opportunity to retrain passed a long time ago! Germany and Europe let the battery business go to China, just like Smartphone and display manufacturing!

 

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

I do not disagree that the auto industry needs to shed jobs but I do think of how those who lose their jobs can be helped in the future whereas you basically want them gone from the industry to save money.

You don't get it, do you? This will be a massacre for European union economy. Especially for Germany. Right now it's about survivability. VW wants to let go 10% of workforce quickly. They need money for the transition to EVs and software, and money to survive during the years they won't be profitable.

 

Ironic enough, the best effort to save European auto industry comes... from Tesla in Berlin! It's the largest EV and battery factory planned for Europe. And a second one will come within a few years.

This won't stop the job losses. EVs require far less parts and Tesla excels in automation. At the same time, I think the whole industry will shrink to less than half in Europe due to robotaxi and due to younger generation not wanting car ownership.

[MikeMelga 7,255]

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

Kind of funny how Germanys ultra(?) unions are quite strong and have got their workers good rights compared to many other countries yet German industry is some of the best and profitable in the world.

This isn't fucking Portugal.

Lol, Portuguese unions are very strong and did get many rights, so many it fucked up Portugal's labor market!

Now who's talking about profitability in first place? Do you realize that there is a higher percentage of people living under the extreme poverty limit in Germany than in Portugal? German Unions are great for qualified jobs, but temporary work, seasonal work and unskilled jobs have no unions to help them.

 

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Didn´t you mention they need to stop relying on suppliers anyway so that´s a moot point.

Well you´ve mentioned it a few thousand times in this thread so yes is the answer to that.

If they stop relying on suppliers (vertical integration), those jobs are internal. As they haven't done that yet, my point is that there are many more job losses than the announced 30k.

 

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If it is so cost saving as you say then why are Teslas so damn expensive?

Are they? Really? They have a cheaper price tag than the equivalent Merc C class and BMW 3 class. And IMO, owning both, Tesla is by far better.

And if you factor in the lifetime savings, they become much cheaper.

Give it a year and you will see how much cheaper a Berlin made Model Y will be.

Diess was very clear: Tesla takes 3x less time to manufacture a car than VW. At the same time, Tesla has a gross margin of 30% and outsell VW EVs. They can be cheaper. They don't have to, because nobody is competing.

 

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Nope it´s an ingrained German attitude.

Germans as a whole do not like change,their attitude is we´ve done it this way for hundreds of years so why change.

Look at how many Germans are stuck in the old ways even in something as minor as different food they don´t like trying new stuff full stop.

That's why this will be a bad century for Germans. The world is shifting too fast for this mindset.

My company still proudly uses Excel and MS Word for all the management activities, including production management!

In my wife's company, engineers dictate reports to recording machines, so that later secretaries type them!!!