Even after all these years, I still...

350 posts in this topic

56 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

No you just stated or implied that teaching useful things would turn children in to wooden automatons who are incapable of introspection, independent thought, empathy or sophistication.

You want to teach kids soldering etc.

So enlighten us how your curriculum would work because the kid would know what he was going to be doing when he leaves school.

When a kid is 5 and want`s to be a fireman do you then start teaching him the appropriate skills ?

If not then what do you teach him ?

How do you plan for every kid to have the appropriate tools and tech devices to learn on ?

On 12/3/2019, 8:50:43, BradinBayern said:

Actually a surgeon who has learned soldering would be good at prototyping new medical devices. 

Why ?

I can solder,weld,I used to put cars together for a living but I wouldn`t be good at designing a new car.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, French bean said:

 

 

 

define what is useful, in fact you could categorise it:

What is useful for someone who wants a career in medicine to learn.

what is useful for a budding carpenter to learn.

What is useful for a future Blacksmith.

What is useful for a yachtsman

 

etc.

Math, for one.  Computer and information science since that will increasing be a part of anyone's life no matter which field they go into.  Not Latin, not Ancient Greek, not how to use a slide rule.

 

1 hour ago, optimista said:

You are on very boggy ground telling someone what they "appear" to be implying.

Misinterpretation?

Read it yourself.  I guess you can also say that Trump didn't really say that the Ukraine didn't have to investigate the Biden's in order to get military aid, he just "appeared"  to be "impying" it.  Meanwhile, in reality...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

My opinion is that it is not better to learn Latin in order to learn English,

Nobody claimed that. It´s just one of many benefits that come with it.

 

2 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

Yes, I do not value teaching useless things because "that is what we always have done", even if there are some potentially tranferable skills that come with it.

That´s the point: subjects that may not be directly useful aren´t necessarily useless because they help shaping your mind. If they provide transferable skills - but they don´t need to be justified in terms of usefulness.

 

3 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

No you just stated or implied that teaching useful things would turn children in to wooden automatons who are incapable of introspection, independent thought, empathy or sophistication.

You´re putting words (or thoughts) into my mouth. I implied that teaching useful things only "...would turn children in to wooden automatons who are incapable of introspection, independent thought, empathy or sophistication..." You see what having been taught useful things only did to you?:P

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish I'd spent more time doing binary at school 10 01 11 10 00 11, then everything would be black and white.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/1/2019, 10:06:44, alderhill said:

After all these years, I still get rather annoyed by poor German service and the special kind of self-absorbed inconsiderate blitheness which too many Germans have. 

 

 

100% this describes it. The scary thing is that I am transforming into them. Now I don't smile to others, care about being polite, worry about their personal space, or offer any help to strangers. The funny this has made service and interaction better!

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, jeba said:

Nobody claimed that. It´s just one of many benefits that come with it.

What is Latin for "my opinion"?  Maybe then you would understand. 

58 minutes ago, jeba said:

That´s the point: subjects that may not be directly useful aren´t necessarily useless because they help shaping your mind. If they provide transferable skills - but they don´t need to be justified in terms of usefulness.

Yes, but they are not magic.  There are other topics that are both useful and also help shaping your mind.  I think I said that before?

 

2 hours ago, French bean said:

I wish I'd spent more time doing binary at school 10 01 11 10 00 11, then everything would be black and white

Why in the world would you want to learn binary?  That is about as useless as Latin.  Although I actually did need binary math once for work.  You do not need to know binary in order to program a computer any more than you need to learn a slide rule to learn math.  Equally stupid waste of time

 

6 hours ago, jeba said:

You see what having been taught useful things only did to you?

You do not know me at all, so don't pretend.  Would you like to compare records on philanthropic work?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

What is Latin for "my opinion"?

Opino. I opine.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

Why in the world would you want to learn binary?  That is about as useless as Latin.  Although I actually did need binary math once for work.  You do not need to know binary in order to program a computer any more than you need to learn a slide rule to learn math.  Equally stupid waste of time

 

And there's me thinking computers work in binary - yes/no actions. Just goes to show things are not black and white.

But if binary is so useless along with Latin, why did you need it for work and why do you ask what the Latin for my opinion is?

 

Total waste of time, learning these when there are others on the internet that can learn it for you, I mean why waste such a precious resource such as time on things that you'll never ever need or use. After all Binary, it's not as if it was used as the basis for computer programming is it? Not like it's used for encoding. Useless pointless bit of nonsense really isn't it

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Latin was good fun 40 years ago. And that's a good enough reason to learn it. It is a brilliant aid to learning other languages.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was influenced by my school pal, Paul, at school, optimista.

First compulsory language was French and, in the second year, it was German or Latin and Ancient Greek!

Nobody at my home took an interest or even looked at my school reports so I followed Paul’s Dad’s advice and went for German!

 

So I ended up at some stage in Germany and at an even later stage in Greece close to Gournia and not far from Knossos!

 

Mind you, the local dialect- should have chosen village Cretan as a second language!

😂

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, optimista said:

Latin was good fun 40 years ago. And that's a good enough reason to learn it. It is a brilliant aid to learning other languages.

Not only that. E. g. it also teaches you that patterns of politics and power have stayed the same for more than 2000 years. Just as the value of gold. An ounce of it bought you a toga in ancient Rome just as it buys you a custom made suit nowadays. Another example would be that you learn more about the importance human rights than in history lessens (think slavery).

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

 

 

Why in the world would you want to learn binary?  That is about as useless as Latin.  Although I actually did need binary math once for work.  You do not need to know binary in order to program a computer any more than you need to learn a slide rule to learn math.  Equally stupid waste of time

You do know shit about programing, really.

How is anybody suppossed to write an IF/THEN statement without a solid understanding of de Morgan 's laws? 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, jeba said:

Not only that. E. g. it also teaches you that patterns of politics and power have stayed the same for more than 2000 years. Just as the value of gold. An ounce of it bought you a toga in ancient Rome just as it buys you a custom made suit nowadays. Another example would be that you learn more about the importance human rights than in history lessens (think slavery).

Study ancient Greece, even more so shows how things have stayed the same.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, franklan said:

You do know shit about programing, really.

How is anybody suppossed to write an IF/THEN statement without a solid understanding of de Morgan 's laws? 

 

Of course you can write an If/Then statement without understanding all the ins and outs of binary.  What a silly statement.  I have taught kids in Africa how to write If/Then statements who had never taking a programming class before.  The reason why we invented high-level languages was so that we don't have to understand binary.

 

Of course you first have to define what you mean by binary.  Are you talking about binary as a concept? Binary Math?  Binary representation of ASCII? Programming in binary?   

 

Most people without a clue mean the the binary representation of ASCII when they are talking about binary, which would be entirely asinine to memorize.  If you have the slightest inkling of programming you would agree that programming in binary is in the "fer fuck's sake" category of insanity. Even writing something in Assembly is only for the masochist. Binary math is slightly useful, but only in very limited circumstances and only for people who are going into the IT (or math) field.  This is the only bit of binary that I have ever needed to use and only to deal with the limitations of the software and hardware that I had to deal with.  I actually had not learned binary math in school, but I taught it to myself  and was programming using it in the same day.  Not something that we have to subject every single pupil learning to program to.

 

Binary as a concept to understand how computers work?  Sure, why not.  Include a unit on it.  How long would that take?  10 minutes?  Less?  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jeba said:

Not only that. E. g. it also teaches you that patterns of politics and power have stayed the same for more than 2000 years. Just as the value of gold. An ounce of it bought you a toga in ancient Rome just as it buys you a custom made suit nowadays. Another example would be that you learn more about the importance human rights than in history lessens (think slavery).

I learned a lot about human rights in my History class.  That depends entirely on the quality of the teacher.   I was taught quite a bit about the evils of slavery and genocide as it applies to American History.  I didn't learn about that in Latin class.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, optimista said:

Latin was good fun 40 years ago. And that's a good enough reason to learn it. It is a brilliant aid to learning other languages.

Learning ANY other language will help you to learn a third.  Learning Latin will only potentially help you to learn languages that are based on Latin, it will not help you with Chinese any more than learning Klingon would.  Even for languages based on Latin, the value is questionable. If you want to learn say, Italian, then learn Italian.  Don't learn Latin in order to learn Italian.  It takes years to learn a language.  Even longer to learn two.  

 

I have no problem with people who want to learn Latin for fun, or because they are going into the priesthood, or because they want to research ancient texts, or for whatever reason VOLUNTARILY.  Just don't force my kid to learn it because you think it is some sort of magical gateway to empathy and sophistication.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Keleth said:

You want to teach kids soldering etc.

So enlighten us how your curriculum would work because the kid would know what he was going to be doing when he leaves school.

When a kid is 5 and want`s to be a fireman do you then start teaching him the appropriate skills ?

If not then what do you teach him ?

How do you plan for every kid to have the appropriate tools and tech devices to learn on ?

Why ?

I can solder,weld,I used to put cars together for a living but I wouldn`t be good at designing a new car.

I would say that anyone who has electricity in their home or uses electrical devices could benefit from learning how to solder.  Moreover anyone who goes to work in any sort of field having to do with electricity or electronics would as well.  That covers most of the developed world. Hey, and you also get transferable skills because their are exercising their fine motor skills!

 

If you have ever had to put together a car for a living that was designed by an engineer who has no fabrication skills then you would know the benefit.  Our fabricators were constantly complaining about the egghead engineers who designed things that could not be built or maintained because they did not leave space for a tool to get to it, not to mention a hand.  Think Pontiac Sunbird, where you have to loosen the engine mounts on the right side to get to the spark plugs.    I cannot count the number of times I would have liked to kick some engineer in the balls while working on my various cars.  If you used to do that for a living, I am surprised that you are telling ME the benefit of teaching engineers how to solder and weld.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

If you used to do that for a living, I am surprised that you are telling ME the benefit of teaching engineers how to solder and weld.  

Are you being obtuse ?

Nowhere have I said that soldering,welding etc are not useful.

I just want to know (because you avoid answering it) when you should teach kids this sort of stuff and instead of what.

Kids need to primarily learn lifeskills and common sense before anything else.No point having an adult who can build you a robot with his eyes closed but has absolutely nothing else in their head other than that.

As I said you want automatons not people.

In a way you want people like those in 1984 and such as in get up,go to work,do your job,come home,sleep,ad infinitum.You want people to only think inside the box because these people only know the skills they`re going to use.

If you change the gearbox on a car for example is it not useful to know what the gearbox does and why it`s there or is it just enough to know the gearbox goes there ?

Have you absolutely no imagination or wonder except in your chosen field ?

You`re the sort of person everyone wants on their pubquiz team but no one wants to invite to a party.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Kids need to primarily learn lifeskills and common sense before anything else.No point having an adult who can build you a robot with his eyes closed but has absolutely nothing else in their head other than that.

As I said you want automatons not people.

Are you being obtuse ?

Nowhere have I said that life skills, common sense etc are not useful.

5 minutes ago, Keleth said:

In a way you want people like those in 1984 and such as in get up,go to work,do your job,come home,sleep,ad infinitum.You want people to only think inside the box because these people only know the skills they`re going to use.

Which I never said or even implied.

 

Really, it is like you haven't even read my posts.  You have a picture in your mind and that is that.  Go here:  https://makerfaire.com/  Read.  That is the sort of thing I would like to promote.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There were companies that took apprentices on and the first thing they did was to clean the Urinals, then like me they spent weeks filing a steel block square along with Maths and engineering theorey. To miss these important phases in skill development leads to piss poor performance in the workplace, the example of design engineers not taking into account the requirements of sevice engineers is a classic case and has been said for years. The Harrier VSTOL aircraft was such a pig to work on. Any one tried changing the dip beam bulbs on a Mk4 Golf?

 

This is the same for learning in schools. whether you agree with it or not, basic social skills, analytical and reasoning skills need to be learnt. Any one who studied history knows it's not about learning names and dates but understanding the chain of events and the consequences of those events, that requires basic analyticall skills. So while it's great to say only teach the skills you think are useful you miss so many other skills that are important to society as a whole. I suppose a good example is the old Soviet Union. People were taught under strict guidelines with minimal lateral thinking. While they could solder all day the same item what they produced was not only unrefined but in many cases lethal. Now what do you want, everyone to learn what you think is right or people to be taught the classics and broadening their minds for your benefit.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now