Even after all these years, I still...

350 posts in this topic

30 minutes ago, Keleth said:

 

Lol and to try and prove him wrong you go and link a pic of a sweatshop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqpDsgh9pG4

 

Meh, It was a picture of lots of people doing soldering.  I also posted a link to over 1000 openings as a soldering assembler.  If you really care to do some research or have ever been to an actual production facility, then you will see that there is plenty of soldering work that is still done by hand. (funny I didn't find a single job as a Cursive Handwriter or a Slide Rule Operator.  Why is that?) Average pay $27/hr.  Not bad for a job you can get right out of High School. 

 

Of course training kids to be soldering assemblers is not the point.  It is to teach them fine motor skills that are transferable to a range of other occupations, such as surgeons.  But if they don't grow up to be surgeons at least they will have learned a useful skill that they can use to feed their family. After soldering comes Arduino and co., Raspberry Pi and co. - Circuit Design, Programming, Automation, Electronics, Engineering - all that silly useless stuff.  Ancient Greek and Latin is a much better use of time, amiright? What use are future engineers who also will have the skills to make their own prototypes?

 

If you want to avoid the Chinese sweat shops, don't be Chinese. Easy.

 

BTW, If you want a picture of happy European soldering assemblers, then here you go.http://en.elhurt.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/0062.jpg

 

May automation someday overcome the need to learn to solder?  Perhaps.  Then it should also be retired just like all the other archaic crap today that is still being taught in schools even though the need for it is long gone.  That day is not now, however.

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2 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

If you want to avoid the Chinese sweat shops, don't be Chinese. Easy.

 

 

Shit, don't tell the Chinese, or there won't be a new iPhone next year.

 

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9 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

Meh, It was a picture of lots of people doing soldering.  I also posted a link to over 1000 openings as a soldering assembler. 

Oh I wasn`t arguing their point I merely found it funny that your answer was a sweatshop.

9 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

If you want to avoid the Chinese sweat shops, don't be Chinese. Easy

You`re a shining example of humanity aren`t you.

9 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

I`ve been called many things that I wouldn`t post on here but gotta be the 1st time I`ve ever been called that.

 

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9 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

Ancient Greek and Latin is a much better use of time, amiright?

It´s at least as important. You seem to be advocating some sort of plain utilitarism. That however, will create "holzschnittartige" characters with little interest for introspection, sophistication or making an effort to get the whole picture. The German word for education is actually "Bildung", which means formation. What you seem to be proposing is "Ausbildung"  (training?) - which can´t substitute for Bildung. Glad you´re not in charge of the educational system. That my kids weren´t taught Latin because they went to school overseas still makes me cringe. E. g. Latin tuition isn´t just language tuition. It´s teaching history, politics, sociology and much more, using the language as a tool to facilitate parts of the curriculum far beyond the actual language.

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12 hours ago, jeba said:

It´s at least as important. You seem to be advocating some sort of plain utilitarism. That however, will create "holzschnittartige" characters with little interest for introspection, sophistication or making an effort to get the whole picture. The German word for education is actually "Bildung", which means formation. What you seem to be proposing is "Ausbildung"  (training?) - which can´t substitute for Bildung. Glad you´re not in charge of the educational system. That my kids weren´t taught Latin because they went to school overseas still makes me cringe. E. g. Latin tuition isn´t just language tuition. It´s teaching history, politics, sociology and much more, using the language as a tool to facilitate parts of the curriculum far beyond the actual language.

To say that only Latin can make one "well-rounded" is more than a little arrogant and out of touch (not to mention Eurocentric)  Do you think that Latin is some sort of magic that makes one introspective, sophisticated or able to comprehend history, politics, sociology, etc?  Sounds like a classic snake oil salesman to me. 

 

You have an extremely limited and small-minded view of what it means to be able to create using technology.  Soldering is only one part of that.  Go take a look at the Maker Movement, attend a First Robotics meet, go to a Maker Faire or even Burning Man and then tell me that those are "holzschnitzartige" characters.  You really have been living under a rock.  Kids can have fun, learn, problem solve, learn teamwork, increase their fine motors skills, learn analytical thinking, be immensely creative AND learn technical skills that will help them live and work in THIS century. 

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Just wondering...Boris does his Ancient Greek strutting and is admired  in the chattering circles in Greece for that...how about Jeremy? Married currently to a Mexican, previously married to a Chilean..and I think another wife in between.

Does he speak good Spanish? Enough to impress Latin American investors into the UK?

 

I know English is what it´s at internationally but you can move earth even with one or two words in another language. It impresses because of the humility and understanding that not everyone speaks English.

Here in  Greece...you give your best and they love it. Because you are trying!

( resident of a village full of 80 year old widows dressed in black and who themselves don´t really speak " proper Greek! )

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23 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

 

To say that only Latin can make one "well-rounded" is more than a little arrogant and out of touch (not to mention Eurocentric)  Do you think that Latin is some sort of magic that makes one introspective, sophisticated or able to comprehend history, politics, sociology, etc?  Sounds like a classic snake oil salesman to me. 

Sounds like a Rees Mogg to me.

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47 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

To say that only Latin can make one "well-rounded" is more than a little arrogant and out of touch

Which he didn`t say.

 

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Even after all these years,  I admire my French teacher  at school, an Englishman called Mr Petty. He learned a different language every year to " A " Level  standard. He spoke, read and wrote about 12 different languages.My hero. His last language, if my memory serves me right, was Czech!

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55 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

To say that only Latin can make one "well-rounded" is more than a little arrogant and out of touch

Would you please point out where I said that? You´re putting words into my mouth. That in my view is what

1 hour ago, BradinBayern said:

classic snake oil salesman

do.

 

59 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

You have an extremely limited and small-minded view of what it means to be able to create using technology.  Soldering is only one part of that.

Where have I even mentioned soldering? What are you on about?

 

1 hour ago, BradinBayern said:

Kids can have fun, learn, problem solve, learn teamwork, increase their fine motors skills, learn analytical thinking, be immensely creative AND learn technical skills that will help them live and work in THIS century. 

Nothing wrong with all of that. It doesn´t mean though that classical "Bildung" has lost it´s place.

 

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5 minutes ago, jeba said:

Would you please point out where I said that? You´re putting words into my mouth. That in my view is what

do.

So what exactly did you mean by claiming that I was advocating "utilitarism" (whatever that means) and would create "holzschnittartige" characters with no introspection and no sophistication?

 

You must have strong legs from all that back pedaling.

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By utilitarism I meant an attitude which values only those thing which provide for a material benefit (e. g. can be used in the job market). "Holzschnittartige" characters means those who are the opposite of well-rounded, soft-spoken, empathic, understanding, able to put themselves in other people´s shoes. I´m not aware of a proper translation but you get the drift?

Pointing out that you put words into my mouth isn´t the same as backpedaling.

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10 hours ago, jeba said:

By utilitarism I meant an attitude which values only those thing which provide for a material benefit (e. g. can be used in the job market). "Holzschnittartige" characters means those who are the opposite of well-rounded, soft-spoken, empathic, understanding, able to put themselves in other people´s shoes. I´m not aware of a proper translation but you get the drift?

Pointing out that you put words into my mouth isn´t the same as backpedaling.

I put "utilitarism" in quotes to subtly indicate to you that despite your oh-so-superior, introspective and comprehensive classic education that you managed to mangle your terminology.  It is shame that you didn't learn in school that the little red lines that appear when you type indicate  that you have spelled something incorrectly but since you are a Boomer maybe that is understandable  A somewhat petty ad hominem, granted, but I found it humorous. The random typo is excusable, but now that you have repeated it that excuse is gone.

 

You have still failed to explain how you came to the conclusion that I was advocating anything of the sort.  Making those claims and then stating "there is nothing wrong with all of that" is indeed backpedaling. 

 

There is absolutely no reason why you cannot use more modern tools to accomplish the goals that you advocate while also teaching practical skills.  They are not mutually exclusive.  

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Fyi my spellcheck is set to German and I simply assumed the English word for the German "Utilitarismus" was utilitarism as usually the English version of Latin terms only differs in the ending. I´m not a native English speaker and was simply was too lazy to check. But there you have it: even though I didn´t know the English word using the Latin one and slightly adapting it was good enough to make me understood.

 

 

7 hours ago, BradinBayern said:

You have still failed to explain how you came to the conclusion that I was advocating anything of the sort.  Making those claims and then stating "there is nothing wrong with all of that" is indeed backpedaling. 

 

Well, you never asked. But since your asking now: These snippets of your posts made me think you don´t really value-old school education:

On 12/4/2019, 5:15:53, BradinBayern said:

Again, opportunity costs.  If you teach THIS that means that you cannot teach THAT - because time and other resources are limited. 

 

On 12/4/2019, 10:57:02, BradinBayern said:

Ancient Greek and Latin is a much better use of time, amiright

 

Glad to hear that´s not the case. Now you have my blessing to apply for a job as minister of education.

 

And as far as backpedaling is concerned, you seem to have found  a way to have the consequence precede the cause since you accused me of it before I wrote what you now say constitutes backpedaling (from what anyway? I never said I objected to tech tuition).

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21 hours ago, jeba said:

 

Fyi my spellcheck is set to German and I simply assumed the English word for the German "Utilitarismus" was utilitarism as usually the English version of Latin terms only differs in the ending. I´m not a native English speaker and was simply was too lazy to check. But there you have it: even though I didn´t know the English word using the Latin one and slightly adapting it was good enough to make me understood.

I think this really illustrates my point.  You think Latin is useful to help you incorrectly guess the English word.  My opinion is that it is not better to learn Latin in order to learn English, but rather that it would be better to learn English in order to learn English

21 hours ago, jeba said:

Well, you never asked. But since your asking now: These snippets of your posts made me think you don´t really value-old school education:

Yes, I do not value teaching useless things because "that is what we always have done", even if there are some potentially tranferable skills that come with it. Instead we should teach useful things that also have transferable skills that come with them.  Whether these useless things are old or not makes no difference to me.

 

21 hours ago, jeba said:

(from what anyway? I never said I objected to tech tuition).

No you just stated or implied that teaching useful things would turn children in to wooden automatons who are incapable of introspection, independent thought, empathy or sophistication.

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On 05/12/2019, 20:47:05, john g. said:

Here in  Greece...you give your best and they love it. Because you are trying!

Exactly. Same in Italy. But not in Bavaria :lol:

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15 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

I think this really illustrates my point.  You think Latin is useful to help you incorrectly guess the English word.  My opinion is that it is not better to learn Latin in order to learn English, but rather that it would be better to learn English in order to learn English

Yes, I do not value teaching useless things because "that is what we always have done", even if there are some potentially tranferable skills that come with it. Instead we should teach useful things that also have transferable skills that come with them.  Whether these useless things are old or not makes no difference to me.

 

No you just stated or implied that teaching useful things would turn children in to wooden automatons who are incapable of introspection, independent thought, empathy or sophistication.

define what is useful, in fact you could categorise it:

What is useful for someone who wants a career in medicine to learn.

what is useful for a budding carpenter to learn.

What is useful for a future Blacksmith.

What is useful for a yachtsman

 

etc.

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13 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

No you just stated or implied that teaching useful things would turn children in to wooden automatons who are incapable of introspection, independent thought, empathy or sophistication.

You are on very boggy ground telling someone what they "appear" to be implying.

Misinterpretation?

There is a difference between actively turning children into... and passively depriving them of the opportunity to become capable of...

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