About the employment situation in the city

120 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

I have no idea what you are trying to highlight there.  Save me the trouble of guessing and point it out, please :) 

Search for disability status.

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18 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

the least socially competent devs I worked with were c/firmware devs.  Still not autistic by any stretch.

concerning social competence:

 

As a developer, you try over and over again until the result fits your expectations or the specs.

 

In real live, it doesn't work that way: If you ask a lady for a dance and she says no, this is it.

People who try asking that question over and over again until the result fits their expectation are called stalkers.

 

Same applies when you're interested in a job and have an interview that goes pear shaped or want to rent a flat and the landlords says no. 

 

You just can't rebot people and try again. 

 

So, the mindset for being a decent person and for being a good programmer is diametral, and some people fail getting both right in the same life.

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ok for the convenience of others (eta sorry the formatting is crap):

 

 have a mood or emotional disorder (ex. depression, bipolar disorder)
  • 8.5%
I have an anxiety disorder
  • 7.8%
I have a concentration and/or memory disorder
  • 5.9%
I identify as autistic / a person with autism 2.1%

 

 

 

so you're batting 2% of the dev population for autism (self reported)

 

Also note this offers zero comparison to other fields of work or population overall (I think it's perfectly relevant to cite US statisics here as a large proportion of stack overflow users are working in the US)  

 

Annual prevalence among U.S. adults, by condition:

  • Major Depressive Episode: 7.2% (17.7 million people)
  • Schizophrenia: <1% (estimated 1.5 million people)
  • Bipolar Disorder: 2.8% (estimated 7 million people)
  • Anxiety Disorders: 19.1% (estimated 48 million people)
  • Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: 3.6% (estimated 9 million people)
  • Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: 1.2% (estimated 3 million people)
  • Borderline Personality Disorder: 1.4% (estimated 3.5 million people)

 

source: https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-By-the-Numbers

 

point being that survey is not grossly out of line with the averages - though notably, anxiety is reported to be much lower in devs (which is highly suspect)

 

 

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2 hours ago, lisa13 said:

ok for the convenience of others (eta sorry the formatting is crap):

 

 have a mood or emotional disorder (ex. depression, bipolar disorder)
  • 8.5%
I have an anxiety disorder
  • 7.8%
I have a concentration and/or memory disorder
  • 5.9%
I identify as autistic / a person with autism 2.1%

 

 

 

so you're batting 2% of the dev population for autism (self reported)

I did not mention only autism. So take the 8.5% + others.

 

2 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 

Also note this offers zero comparison to other fields of work or population overall (I think it's perfectly relevant to cite US statisics here as a large proportion of stack overflow users are working in the US)  

 

Annual prevalence among U.S. adults, by condition:

  • Major Depressive Episode: 7.2% (17.7 million people)
  • Schizophrenia: <1% (estimated 1.5 million people)
  • Bipolar Disorder: 2.8% (estimated 7 million people)
  • Anxiety Disorders: 19.1% (estimated 48 million people)
  • Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: 3.6% (estimated 9 million people)
  • Obsessive Compulsive Disorder: 1.2% (estimated 3 million people)
  • Borderline Personality Disorder: 1.4% (estimated 3.5 million people)

 

source: https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-By-the-Numbers

 

point being that survey is not grossly out of line with the averages - though notably, anxiety is reported to be much lower in devs (which is highly suspect)

There you are mixing people who can't even work due to their condition.

 

Also, nowadays SW development is probably 10x bigger than it was in the 90's, when I started. Nowadays you have a lot of (potentially sane) people that make it as SW developers (mainly web dev) which are a completely different crowd from the hardcore developers of the <=90's. As I said on a previous post, my personal guess is that those people with problems probably focus more on the hardcore SW dev. paths, like C++. And as the survey shows, that is a minority compared to webdev.

But on my area, I do see a lot of weird people. And being an arrogant ass on this topic, for me webdevelopment isn't "real SW development" as most of people doing it are not engineers, just code monkeys. Probably my perspective comes from the fact that I am not a SW developer by education, therefore my dismissal of people pretending to be engineers.

 

Let the bashing begin!

 

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59 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

There you are mixing people who can't even work due to their condition.

 

and there you were citing a 100% unverified survey of people who merely claim to be devs, only 2% of which claim to be autistic (contrary to your early statements about autism ONLY - yes I noticed you expanded your claims about the weirdness of devs later on to include vague references to paranoia - this would suggest a schizophrenic tendency which most often prevents people from holding gainful employment so I'm really not sure what's going on there)

 

again, whatevs.  When you find some data that shows a much lower incidence of mental health issues in other industries, please share.  Hint:  it's actually a very hot topic in management and hr circles these days.

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18 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 Hint:  it's actually a very hot topic in management and hr circles these days.

Yeah, some companies are looking for the autistic super genius (Rain man effect) but I am actually skeptical.

First, because I worked with an autistic guy that was far, far from genius, although he though he was. Being autistic and smart don´t make automatically someone a genius.

Second because I worked with a guy which we suspect was autistic, among other much more serious mental issues, and although he was the most knowledgeable guy I´ve met in terms of compilers optimization, SW patterns, etc, his code was a complete disaster and a reflex of his messed up brain. You could write an anti-pattern book just with stuff from his code!

Third and most important, he was a terrible team player.

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46 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Third and most important, he was a terrible team player.

 

I kind of have some internal issues with the concept of being a team player, while I have learnt with the time to compromise and "work with the system", I think that the concept of being a good team player is mostly crap, but I have decided to simply play the game so I can be considered a good team player.

 

When you have a team, you will have a bunch of different opinions, and with good arguing and reasoning, everyone can explain why his position is the best, even if it is completely opposite to another one which actually sounds totally OK as well.

 

If you are in a team that is just a bag of problems and you try to fight the majority in order to "fix" things, because you think you know better, you will be fighting the culture of the group and you might end up being the one who can't play in a team.   Even if you are right.   Or you might be actually wrong but you simply can't see the whole picture because it is way more complex than you think, you might stick to your believes and push in the wrong direction, or gave up, which I think is actually wrong too.

 

PS. I think this thread is getting way off-topic,  Maybe it needs a split.

 

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@MikeMelgaoh, no that's not what I'm talking about - I should have been more clear

 

I'm talking about the trend of taking mental health in the workplace more seriously.  Businesses lose bucket loads in terms of reduced productivity/employee absenteeism due to the fact that employees suffer mental health issues from time to time.  Widespread.  Across industries.  It's just that way.  Not all mental health issue may be severe enough to claim it as a disability (I find that question on the survey kinda strange - was this doctor confirmed or just self-evaluated?) but it impacts the employee with the disorder and all the people around them even when it's a less severe form, and it most assuredly impacts the employer.  So they are becoming more interested in the topic.

 

Especially for issues like depression and anxiety, and even bipolar disorder, people with these troubles often hold jobs.  Why do you think they don't? 

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26 minutes ago, Krieg said:

I kind of have some internal issues with the concept of being a team player

 

There are most definately some people that are not team players. Disruptive, argumentative, highly opinionated (especially when wrong) etc.  They arent very common, but just a small number of people who distrupt teamwork is a huge negative.  

 

To me, outside of the super negative people described above, its not so much whether someone is a team player in an absolute sense, but finding the right team for each person, such that they work well together. Person A may not perform in team 1 but may be a high performer in team 2.  Person B may be the reverse.  The same is also true of companies, someone at home in a large konzern may not do well in a startup for example.

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3 hours ago, lisa13 said:

@MikeMelgaoh, no that's not what I'm talking about - I should have been more clear

 

I'm talking about the trend of taking mental health in the workplace more seriously.  Businesses lose bucket loads in terms of reduced productivity/employee absenteeism due to the fact that employees suffer mental health issues from time to time.  Widespread.  Across industries.  It's just that way.  Not all mental health issue may be severe enough to claim it as a disability (I find that question on the survey kinda strange - was this doctor confirmed or just self-evaluated?) but it impacts the employee with the disorder and all the people around them even when it's a less severe form, and it most assuredly impacts the employer.  So they are becoming more interested in the topic.

I completely agree. Not only mental health, but personal private issues, like money, family, health issues.

I´ve had several cases where developers had serious mental or personal issues that were interfering with their professional performance. And I try to help them as much as I can. In most of them the developers could solve them, but in 3 cases we had to fire those people (or they would quit before).

 

3 hours ago, lisa13 said:

Especially for issues like depression and anxiety, and even bipolar disorder, people with these troubles often hold jobs.  Why do you think they don't? 

In SW world you either have loners or big teams with a lot of interaction. These people work very well alone. Problem rises when they are integrated in a team, normally when a project grows fast.

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3 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

I kind of have some internal issues with the concept of being a team player, while I have learnt with the time to compromise and "work with the system", I think that the concept of being a good team player is mostly crap, but I have decided to simply play the game so I can be considered a good team player.

It´s not crap. Large teams with complex projects need a very good work environment and a lot of cooperation. Fortunately right now I have such a team, all are very good team players. But a year ago it was not the same...

 

We do a lot of pair programming, multiple 3-4 person spikes per sprint, join troubleshooting on the lab (with non-SW developers), etc. A bad team player won´t last here. Even other non-SW teams will start complaining.

 

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26 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

It´s not crap. Large teams with complex projects need a very good work environment and a lot of cooperation. Fortunately right now I have such a team, all are very good team players. But a year ago it was not the same...

 

We do a lot of pair programming, multiple 3-4 person spikes per sprint, join troubleshooting on the lab (with non-SW developers), etc. A bad team player won´t last here. Even other non-SW teams will start complaining.

 

 

I think you just described exactly what I said.   You have a group of experienced people who know how to play the game.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

I think you just described exactly what I said.   You have a group of experienced people who know how to play the game.

 

 

Yeah, but took me several years to get them, I had to get very strict during interviews. All new developers must be team players. Maybe this gets us back in topic? :)

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On 10/13/2019, 11:19:02, mako1 said:

Standard CV is signed in Deutschland, at least for professional jobs.

 

nah ja, the wife, who is way more successful than me in finding employment (and is, through no fault of her own, German) never signs her CV.

 

 

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On 10/26/2019, 10:28:25, lisa13 said:

 

I'd also like to see any data or studies about how studying and practicing the dark arts might change the brain and/or behavior.

 

I've had some interesting conversations about this, most notably with people who got into their "autistic skills" later in life (ie not people who took up programming when they were kids) who can absolutely identify major differences in their thinking and personality pre and post IT or other technical work.  Compared to my pre-programming self, I have become far too literal, too linear in my thinking, a bit too rigid/precise, none of which I value at all, on a personal level, but it does serve me well at work.  Problem is that it's not like you can just switch it off.  It kinda sucks, actually.

 

As I stated before, I don't agree that devs in general are particularly autistic - I only ever met one who really was.  However, when you consider the nature of the work, and the amount of time spent doing it, you can't be too surprised when people who do this work develop some differences from the population at large.

 

As Wizard said in "Taxi Driver"

 

"Look at it this way. A man takes a job, you know? And that job - I mean, like that - That becomes what he is. You know, like - You do a thing and that's what you are. Like I've been a cabbie for thirteen years. Ten years at night. I still don't own my own cab. You know why? Because I don't want to. That must be what I want. To be on the night shift drivin' somebody else's cab. You understand? I mean, you become - You get a job, you become the job."

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16 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

 

In SW world you either have loners or big teams with a lot of interaction. These people work very well alone. Problem rises when they are integrated in a team, normally when a project grows fast.

 

Are you pehaps conflating 'being a team player' with 'having good social skills'?

 

Because, while there may be overlap, they are not necessarily the same thing.

 

One employee could work from home with no social interaction and make a valuable contribution, another could be very socially interactive and appear busy with meetings, talking to people etc. while doing the minimum possible work.

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4 hours ago, arsenal21 said:

 

Are you pehaps conflating 'being a team player' with 'having good social skills'?

 

1) Being able to communicate ideas

2) Being receptive to other people´s ideas

3) Recognizing when a mistake was made

4) Able to cover for others

5) Being able to engage in constructive discussion

6) Accept to work on shitty tasks from time to time. Take one for the team!

7) When I´m at a customer in Asia, with a big problem to solve, with a huge time zone difference, show up at 7:00am in the office and help me out

8) Have empathy, i.e. be able to write code that others can understand

9) Be able to compromise

10) and so on...

 

Unfortunately to be able to do this, you do need some decent social skills. Empathy being one of the most important.

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On 9.10.2019, 20:46:15, MikeMelga said:

I hope you are being sarcastic, because SW developers are probably the most autistic professional group.

I could spend hours telling crazy stories.

 

When you have to spend your entire life studying (often in your free time or weekends), to stay updated on the latest hyped language/framework/tool, you don't have a lot of time to develop your soft skills...

 

I wouldn't recommend the IT industry to anybody who wants to have a life.

It has become crazy...the rate of change, especially in the areas of Frontend development and DevOps, is unsustainable...by the time you become expert in technology X, it's already outdated in the job market.

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49 minutes ago, UpToWick said:

When you have to spend your entire life studying (often in your free time or weekends), to stay updated on the latest hyped language/framework/tool, you don't have a lot of time to develop your soft skills...

 

This is true, but I see it the other way around.  If you love your field and anyway spend all your spare time learning new stuff, programming at home, building cool stuff with your raspberry etc, then its the right career for you.  If you dont, then its not my place to tell you one way or the other, but odds are that you will see it as a chore.

 

But Id say that about almost any skilled role. If you arent interested in chemistry and dont want to spend your evenings reading scientific papers, you probably wont love your job as an HPLC specialist and if you dont want to spend your weekends marking homework you probably arent cut out to be a teacher.  

 

And to be honest, decent companies invest heavily in personal development, and view worklife balance as more than a buzzword.

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