About the employment situation in the city

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In my day it wasn't necessary, but in the meantime although it's not a must it is advised to sign your CV. One of several links found by google: https://bewerbung.co/lebenslauf-unterschreiben-oder-nicht

 

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Der Lebenslauf ist kein Vertrag – eine Unterschrift ist also nicht zwingend erforderlich. Eine Vorschrift, dass man den Lebenslauf unterschreiben muss, gibt es demnach nicht. Dennoch raten Personalentscheider häufig dazu, nicht auf die Unterschrift zu verzichten. Ihr Argument: Wer den Lebenslauf unterschreibt, bestätigt damit, dass alle Angaben, die er hier gemacht hat, korrekt sind. Ein Lebenslauf mit Unterschrift wirkt demnach seriös.

Es ist also üblich, den Lebenslauf zu unterschreiben, denn als Bewerber kann man nicht wissen, ob die Personalabteilung auf derartige Details achtet. Allerdings: Auch wer nicht unterschreibt, darf natürlich keine fehlerhaften Angaben in den Lebenslauf schreiben. Und wer es dennoch tut, ist auch mit der Unterschrift nicht in irgendeiner Form abgesichert: Entdeckt der Chef nach einiger Zeit falsche Angaben, beispielsweise einen Titel, der nie erlangt wurde, ist eine Kündigung selbstverständlich trotzdem gültig.

 

 

The CV is not a contract - a signature is therefore not mandatory. There is therefore no requirement to sign the CV. Nevertheless, personnel decision-makers often advise not to forgo the signature. Their argument: Who signs the curriculum vitae, confirms thereby that all data, which it gave here, are correct. A curriculum vitae with a signature therefore appears serious.

It is therefore usual to sign the CV, because as an applicant you cannot know whether the HR department pays attention to such details. However, even if you do not sign, you are of course not allowed to write any erroneous information in your CV. And who does it nevertheless, is not secured also with the signature in any form: If the boss discovers wrong data after some time, for example a title, which was never attained, a notice is naturally valid nevertheless.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

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11 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

Well then I must be a very special person.

 

Then I must also be!   (EDIT: used to have been...)

 

Amongst other places I worked for debis Systemhaus (the then-software house of Daimler) followed by the German branch of Sun Microsystems (subsequently Oracle) which I would claim to be "professional jobs" & never was asked to sign the CV itself.  Of course my covering letter with my application for the jobs were signed...

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I don't see very much mileage here extrapolating general points from very personal, but unspecifed, experience.

 

The general expectation is that a CV is signed and dated. 

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32 minutes ago, Kommentarlos said:

I don't see very much mileage here extrapolating general points from very personal, but unspecifed, experience.

:D

 

Then Toytown would consist of a few minor notices and not much else...

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2 hours ago, lisa13 said:

Well then I must be a very special person. Many interviews in a variety of locations, and three jobs here in Munich, never asked to do that. 

 

The arbeitsamt also didn't say a word in that direction when I had to visit them for a mandatory CV check. They had plenty of other things to say but not that.

 

Maybe some employers require that but clearly not all. Or as I said, maybe I am just very special.

 

Or maybe you are just living in an expat bubble?

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6 minutes ago, engelchen said:

 

Or maybe you are just living in an expat bubble?

 

anything is possible.  I think it's more likely a software bubble if it's a bubble at all.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, engelchen said:

 

Or maybe you are just living in an expat bubble?

I see well over 100 cvs per year and I don´t recall a signature, although it is filtered first by HR, so perhaps the signature is only in the cover letter.

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2 hours ago, lisa13 said:

I think it's more likely a software bubble if it's a bubble at all.

 

In the IT field Im pretty sure that all the signed CVs I have ever seen have been from Indians (for whom it is quite common, somewhere around a third to a half sign their CV) and never from a german. Signed cover letters are common, but bearing in mind most people apply electronically even these are often not signed and where they are it is often a scanned signature pasted in that looks weird.

 

That said, our HR team claims that in general it is common for germans to sign CVs, just not for whatever reason the several hundred that apply to us every year.  

 

1 minute ago, MikeMelga said:

I see well over 100 cvs per year and I don´t recall a signature, although it is filtered first by HR, so perhaps the signature is only in the cover letter.

 

Exactly my experience.

 

Its either outdated information that HR people share between each other (possible), or its just not common in some industries. 

 

My gut feeling is that since application by email has become common people tend not to print, sign then scan but send the original electronic document as word or pdf.

 

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45 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

That said, our HR team claims that in general it is common for germans to sign CVs, just not for whatever reason the several hundred that apply to us every year.  

 

 

:lol:

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I work in öffentlicher Dienst and was required to sign my CV before I signed my contract. Perhaps in the private sector, the rules are more relaxed. 

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The thing I learn about Germany, after all these years ….
In all my jobs in various German offices i've never signed my CV. Cover letter, yes, CV, no.
My husband who has worked for both multinational coporation and research institute doesn't sign his CV and never got any signed CV from applicants that he interviewed either.

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On 09/10/2019, 20:46:15, MikeMelga said:

I hope you are being sarcastic, because SW developers are probably the most autistic professional group.

I could spend hours telling crazy stories.

No I was not being sarcastic.   I repeat, your experience does not match mine.  I recognise that, almost certainly, neither of us has a large enough sample in our experience pool to form a definitive conclusion. 

 

Further, your claim about being SW developers being "probably the most autistic professional group" is clearly hyperbole, at best, or absolute twaddle, at worst, UNLESS YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE OF EVERY PROFESSIONAL GROUP.  

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1 hour ago, starkebogen said:

Further, your claim about being SW developers being "probably the most autistic professional group" is clearly hyperbole, at best, or absolute twaddle, at worst, UNLESS YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE OF EVERY PROFESSIONAL GROUP.

 

I doubt its "the most autistic profession", partly because depending how you play with the statistics you can always find another group that better fits but also because I know a little about professors of hard sciences and math and Im pretty sure they have IT beat.  

 

Dont know about actual statistics by profession, I suspect they dont exist.  But there is some evidence that technology generally does have higher levels of autism, which to be blunt I doubt many of us are surprised by:  https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/autism-experiment-reveals-people-in-technical-professions-are-more-likely-to-have-autistic-traits-a6719956.html

 

IT is often listed as a good job, together with things like working with animals (which strikes me as very unlike software dev, but there you have it).  Example https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisprograms.com/lists/5-good-career-choices-for-people-with-autism-spectrum-disorder/ or https://www.iidc.indiana.edu/pages/Choosing-the-Right-Job-for-People-with-Autism-or-Aspergers-Syndrome

 

Note also that software development is a very diverse field.  A typical big data/analytics software pro for example has little to no overlap with a javascript hipster.  

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On 09/10/2019, 11:01:22, MikeMelga said:

Most of the CVs we get come from recruiting agencies, so they already filter a lot for us. The CVs come mostly in a standard format, written by the agency, together with the candidate. Typos is of course not an issue.

 

We usually reject them by CV review because:

  • skill/experience mismatch
  • being a jumper
  • avoid automotive embedded contractors <-- usually very bad candidates

Then we call a few for interviews. Surprisingly, most candidates lie on the CVs. We catch most of the lies during these interviews. As soon as we catch a significant lie, interview is stopped.

But the main reason for not accepting them after an interview is related with teamwork. As it is well known, SW developers are socially awkward and prefer to work alone. They also have problems with conversational context and they have only a technical mindset, no customer mindset. Worst, most of them are no real engineers, despite what their degree says.

 

A real engineer might want to look at that process again. From what you posted the agency is not doing their job properly.

You might also try to ask them about their mindset before calling them in.

 

- IT consultant. Bored of gatekeepers who do not know what they are doing.

 

 

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On 10/10/2019, 06:56:42, MikeMelga said:

I asked a very broad question: C++ standards. From there I develop the rest of the conversation. Example: if the guy says std threads, I develop the conversation into multithreading topic. If he goes into smart pointers, I go into that direction. If he says templates, he clearly has no idea and completely overstated his C++ knowledge.

 

C++11 was a landmark. If a C++ developer does not know that, then he is not a "above average" developer as they call themselves.

 

Again C++11 was the big thing. And there is much more to it than VS on Windows. We are using C++17 in windows, for example, because our compiler supports it and we found some usage for the new features.

 

And... you didn't study Computer Science at one of the better Unis out there.

For Threading see CSP, dining philosophers, set-reset/atomic OS/hardware/lang ops, atomic algorithms, semaphores/mutexes, starvation/livelock/deadlock, context switching, visibility.

For Smart Pointers see Invariants, pre/post-conditions  and ownership.

Auto is polymorphism is underpinned by type theory.

 

Fundamentals cover the principles that govern of all that surface fluff that implementation ridden practitioners are obsessed with.

These all existed as concepts before C++11 and will probably exist after it.

Someone who programmed using and/or studied functional programming understood lamdas before modern imperative languages adopted some aspects of them and furthermore understands them outside of that narrow context.

Ditto most of the syntactic sugar of C++11 changes.

 

Programming is about concepts and that should be the focus.

If someone knows Knuth they will most likely be a superior programmer to someone who doesn't but can rattle off high-level implementation details of a particular language version.

If someone knows Myers/Stutter/The Romanian Template Guy the same applies.

The skill is understanding is the deeper questions of 'why' rather than the 'what' as that is the part that you cannot just reference and understand on the fly.

That is what will allow you to switch between closely related languages (c-like) or even particular language versions without significant issue because those version changes are largely based on and operate within a common theoretical (and practical) framework.

 

Threading and concurrency as a topic covers threading in imperative high level language constructs, communication, databases etc. To narrow it down to "what syntax" you use with "one of these given implementations" is the mindset of a "user" or "practitioner" and lacks a deeper understanding as to why these are all connected.

 

 

 

 

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On 10/18/2019, 2:02:58, zwiebelfisch said:

 

I doubt its "the most autistic profession", partly because depending how you play with the statistics you can always find another group that better fits but also because I know a little about professors of hard sciences and math and Im pretty sure they have IT beat.  

 

Dont know about actual statistics by profession, I suspect they dont exist.  But there is some evidence that technology generally does have higher levels of autism, which to be blunt I doubt many of us are surprised by:  https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/autism-experiment-reveals-people-in-technical-professions-are-more-likely-to-have-autistic-traits-a6719956.html

 

IT is often listed as a good job, together with things like working with animals (which strikes me as very unlike software dev, but there you have it).  Example https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisprograms.com/lists/5-good-career-choices-for-people-with-autism-spectrum-disorder/ or https://www.iidc.indiana.edu/pages/Choosing-the-Right-Job-for-People-with-Autism-or-Aspergers-Syndrome

 

Note also that software development is a very diverse field.  A typical big data/analytics software pro for example has little to no overlap with a javascript hipster.  

 

I'd also like to see any data or studies about how studying and practicing the dark arts might change the brain and/or behavior.

 

I've had some interesting conversations about this, most notably with people who got into their "autistic skills" later in life (ie not people who took up programming when they were kids) who can absolutely identify major differences in their thinking and personality pre and post IT or other technical work.  Compared to my pre-programming self, I have become far too literal, too linear in my thinking, a bit too rigid/precise, none of which I value at all, on a personal level, but it does serve me well at work.  Problem is that it's not like you can just switch it off.  It kinda sucks, actually.

 

As I stated before, I don't agree that devs in general are particularly autistic - I only ever met one who really was.  However, when you consider the nature of the work, and the amount of time spent doing it, you can't be too surprised when people who do this work develop some differences from the population at large.

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13 hours ago, claudeyc said:

 

A real engineer might want to look at that process again. From what you posted the agency is not doing their job properly.

You might also try to ask them about their mindset before calling them in.

We have some specialized requirements (image processing) and it is very hard to find a match, so we have to evaluate non ideal candidates. So the agencies just send a lot of them.

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13 hours ago, claudeyc said:

 

And... you didn't study Computer Science at one of the better Unis out there.

Let's start by saying I am not a software engineer, so I did not study software engineering nor computer sciences.

Although I lead a relatively large SW team, I would say 60% of my work is software unrelated.

 

13 hours ago, claudeyc said:

Programming is about concepts and that should be the focus.

Programming should also be about understanding what the customer wants and that is where the vast majority of SW developers fail big time. I.e., they are SW developers, NOT SW engineers.

Several years ago, I set a rule in my team. For each 3 developers, one must be "engineer", i.e. think as an engineer. The type of questions I was mentioning are more critical for the "non-engineer" guys. When we are lucky and do find a guy with an engineering mindset (1 out of 10 candidates or less), the interview barely touches SW topics.

 

With those guys, we talk about system design/integration. About requirement management. And, funny enough, sometimes I ask them why should I move to C++17 while being on C++11. My ideal answer from those type of guys would be "don't move, if there is no direct benefit for the customer". But i would also be very happy with an answer :"As you are focused on performance, perhaps new parallel algorithms of STL" (i.e., he understood what are the benefits for the customer!). The worst possible answer would be "because it is the latest".

 

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11 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 

I'd also like to see any data or studies about how studying and practicing the dark arts might change the brain and/or behavior.

I think it is the opposite. SW development is a very good career path for autistic persons.

 

Even MS acknowledges that:

https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2015/04/03/microsoft-announces-pilot-program-to-hire-people-with-autism/

 

EDIT: found something interesting:

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018

 

Quote

As I stated before, I don't agree that devs in general are particularly autistic - I only ever met one who really was.  However, when you consider the nature of the work, and the amount of time spent doing it, you can't be too surprised when people who do this work develop some differences from the population at large.

I've met a lot, really a lot! Not only autistic, but mentally disturbed people with severe paranoia.

Perhaps things get more evident when you work with C++ developers, instead of web developers. Usually autistic programmers tend to focus in learning more about it and go "hardcore", i.e. C++, cryptography, AI and computer vision, like what I work with.

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yeah Mike we get your viewpoint, but some of us simply don't agree.

 

and dude, I don't know how many times I need to say it, I AM a c++ dev and have worked primarily with c and c++ devs for most of my career in a variety of applications, currently including AI and computer vision, but my experience simply does not match yours in any way, shape or form.  

 

whatevs

 

eta:  the least socially competent devs I worked with were c/firmware devs.  Still not autistic by any stretch.

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