Language acquisition for 5/6 year old

73 posts in this topic

On 25.8.2019, 09:17:30, Valerienellk said:

I was just looking for some inspiring stories of how your kindergarten (or early school age) kids acquired language and assimilated.

 

Well, we are a completely English speaking household and so our kids have only learned German out of the house.They have all acquired German sufficient for a successful education and social life. The oldest and most academic got a 1,1 Abitur and a degree from Oxford, so has been successful in both the German system and the English. Kid#2 has serious learning difficulties and has gone through what most people are horrified by - the Hauptschule - and then went on to Berufsschule and got a Fachabitur. Also great success.

 

Who knows with the last two - you get out what you put in which would currently be a 'grudging attendance' certificate, but we will see. Their German is good enough, for certain. They have been in the German system from the start of Kindy. The youngest has always been in extra German, but that's because he gets crap marks because he doesn't speak in class if he can help it, not because his German is not fit for purpose in itself.

 

Your Kindy sounds ideal, and as though your kid stands every chance of picking up the language. I still would do extra activities just in case.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/24/2019, 3:59:07, Valerienellk said:

My 5 and a half year old son is about to start German kindergarten. We’ve been here since June and he knows a small handful of words only. He’s a social guy who is pretty desperate to make friends and have a fulfilling life here so I’m wondering if any of you can share stories of your 5 or 6 (or older) year olds picking up German through kindergarten or early German schools. I’m a mom who has watched her child struggle all summer so any hopeful experiences will help!

my girls, from Australia with no German language, went straight into Grundschule grades 2 and 3. They were conversing with everyone at 6 months and as fluent as german kids within one year. If you have a challenge ("IF"), it might be the issue that MikeMelga alluded to: there is a bit of a problem with the German school system...structurally and methodologically. It needs some serious reform. But at kindergarten, I think you just have to keep an eye on what behaviours are acceptable for the kids - and how the staff approach various issues with children. Overall, my experience says that you do not have to worry about whether your boy picks up the language.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, peterLP said:

 it might be the issue that MikeMelga alluded to: there is a bit of a problem with the German school system...structurally and methodologically. It needs some serious reform. 

 

I used to think like that, now my kids are in 6th and 4th grade and I started to "get it".   I even used to hate the streaming system and I have started to think it is not that bad.  Now I think that most of the hate from foreigners it is simply because it is different.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Krieg said:

 

I used to think like that, now my kids are in 6th and 4th grade and I started to "get it".   I even used to hate the streaming system and I have started to think it is not that bad.  Now I think that most of the hate from foreigners it is simply because it is different.

Congrats, your brainwash was successful. Compare it with other school systems to get perspective.

Most of the Grundschule is just to have you properly speak German, then they decide your life at the age of 10, based on your language skills.

This is fucked up enough.

 

And let´s not even talk about the disastrous kinderkrippe and kindergarten! They are some 40 years behind modern learning systems!

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

Congrats, your brainwash was successful.

 

Impolite much? 

 

Quote

Compare it with other school systems to get perspective.

 

Comparing systems is actually pretty difficult.  You will only know a system until you have been in contact with it for a long time, by either studying there, putting a kid there or been a teacher.   Then how to really know several ones?   Yes, you can read "studies" but it will be most probably uninformative.   I used to think like many here, probably influenced by the opinions here, I thought the system was not that good and hated the streaming system.  Until I put my kids there.

 

Quote

Most of the Grundschule is just to have you properly speak German, then they decide your life at the age of 10, based on your language skills.

This is fucked up enough.

 

This is completely wrong.   The Gymnasialempfehlung is decided by many subjects, not only German language, some subjects count double though.  Here in Berlin the ones that count double are German, English, Math, Sciences and GeWi.   And then Music, Sports and Arts count as single.    You need to have maximum 2,2 to get the straight recommendation.  And from 2,3 and up to 2,7 you might still get it based in another table of "development" which have more to do with been able to work in group, being able to work independently, behavior, and etc.

 

Here is how the final grade is calculated in Berlin, you can see you can make it with mediocre German if you do well on other subjects:

 

foerderprognose-18.jpg.2f28d112f8f18dd41

 

And then if you do you get the recommendation you can still make your Abitur in schools that are not oriented to the academic side, so less Math and Science and more of other things.

 

Quote

 

And let´s not even talk about the disastrous kinderkrippe and kindergarten! They are some 40 years behind modern learning systems!

 

My kids went to a wonderful Kindergarten, so I don't really know what the problem is.   Maybe the lack of places is the problem.  But probably you do not like that Germans do not really believe in early education and most preschoolers do not learn ABC and instead they play a lot.

 

And this is Berlin, which is supposed to be bad, so I would expect that other states are even better.

 

I honestly think that TT has done lot of damage spreading wrong ideas.   Yes, there are problems, but they are not as bad as TT taught me. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

6 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

This is completely wrong.   The Gymnasialempfehlung is decided by many subjects, not only German language, some subjects count double though.  Here in Berlin the ones that count double are German, English, Math, Sciences and GeWi.   And then Music, Sports and Arts count as single.    You need to have maximum 2,2 to get the straight recommendation.  And from 2,3 and up to 2,7 you might still get it based in another table of "development" which have more to do with been able to work in group, being able to work independently, behavior, and etc.

 

Here is how the final grade is calculated in Berlin, you can see you can make it with mediocre German if you do well on other subjects:

I am talking about Grundschule, not Gymnasium.

I could also enumerate other serious issues, like lack of support, lack of feedback and insisting only on hard skills, as the XXI century is made for soft skills.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Krieg said:

My kids went to a wonderful Kindergarten, so I don't really know what the problem is.

My kid went to 3 of them. The last was at the international school and it was worlds apart! So I can compare, so I can tell you that even the private kindergarten/krippe are really, really bad!
As an example, on the international school my kid had to act in front of 200 people a few times per month, in a group. And last year he acted alone in front of 400 people! This will give him unmeasurable confidence for life!

This is before mentioning that he can read and partially write in two languages before first grade.

Another example: at the last german kindergarten they told us that he had some minor learning disability because he could not do anything nor follow orders. After two months at the international school, he finally started drawing, expressing himself and following orders! It was like day and night!

The German pre school system is something that had a very profound negative mark for me.

 

6 minutes ago, Krieg said:

But probably you do not like that Germans do not really believe in early education and most preschoolers do not learn ABC and instead they play a lot.

Yep, that is part of the problem. I´ve heard several Germans with the same opinion, they mix up kindergarten concept with spielgroup.

The other are outdated methods and focusing on a single method, like Montessori, as nowadays you always mix 4 or 5 of them and adapt to each kid. Another issue was the very low quality and training of teachers and helpers!

 

6 minutes ago, Krieg said:

I honestly think that TT has done lot of damage spreading wrong ideas.   Yes, there are problems, but they are not as bad as TT taught me.

Get out of that dark hole fast and look around!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

I am talking about Grundschule, not Gymnasium.

 

Me too.  It shows how LITTLE to NOTHING you know about the system you are criticizing.    I was describing how they are graded in GRUNDSCHULE in order to get the recommendation to the Gymnasium.   Because you said that it is all based in German skills, which can't be further from the truth.

 

3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

As an example, on the international school my kid had to act in front of 200 people a few times per month, in a group. And last year he acted alone in front of 400 people! This will give him unmeasurable confidence for life!

 

So do my kids in their public school.  Well, not a few times a month, but sure a few times a year, in assemblies and school parties, etc.

 

3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

This is before mentioning that he can read and partially write in two languages before first grade.

Another example: at the last german kindergarten they told us that he had some minor learning disability because he could not do anything nor follow orders. After two months at the international school, he finally started drawing, expressing himself and following orders! It was like day and night!

The German pre school system is something that had a very profound negative mark for me.

 

So, you had one bad experience with one person and that's enough to say the whole preschool system is crap.

 

3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

Yep, that is part of the problem. I´ve heard several Germans with the same opinion, they mix up kindergarten concept with spielgroup.

The other are outdated methods and focusing on a single method, like Montessori, as nowadays you always mix 4 or 5 of them and adapt to each kid. Another issue was the very low quality and training of teachers and helpers!

 

And other countries believe that early education should be started at 6 months old (i.e. some Asian countries).   The Germans think it is useless, to me of course it was crazy, spending the whole day playing and doing ludic activities sounded like a waste of time.   Now I think it was great for them.

 

3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

 

Get out of that dark hole fast and look around!

 

Why? They are doing great.  In the path to an incredible Gymnasium.

 

And actually, to be honest, I do not care so much about grades, I understand they are important here because you need decent grades to go to the good schools, but I care more if they are actually learning something, if they have to actually think and if they are happy.   So far, with a few exceptions, both had really great teachers.   And I REALLY like that parents must be involved in the education of their kids, this is very important in Germany, at the beginning it was hard, but now I think the Germans got that part correct.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Krieg said:

So, you had one bad experience with one person and that's enough to say the whole preschool system is crap.

I had several bad experiences with several "educators" in 2 different schools. I also talk with several parents that complain about the same.

 

11 minutes ago, Krieg said:

And other countries believe that early education should be started at 6 months old (i.e. some Asian countries).   The Germans think it is useless, to me of course it was crazy, spending the whole day playing and doing ludic activities sounded like a waste of time.   Now I think it was great for them.

My kid couldn´t enumerate colors in German at the age of 4! As basic as that! But he could do it in English and Portuguese! More interestingly, he learned the English with an American teacher that was hired by the (supposedly bilingual) kindergarten! So the american guy could do it, but the useless local "educators" just said he was dumb!

 

11 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Why? They are doing great.  In the path to an incredible Gymnasium.

As if Gymnasium is a guaranty for a good professional life. As said before, hard skills will pay much less in the future!

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MikeMelga said:

As if Gymnasium is a guaranty for a good professional life. As said before, hard skills will pay much less in the future!

 

And soft skills are very much taught here.   Communication, group work, leadership, presentation skills, etc, are things they work basically every day.   And it is part of the grades in primary school, 50% is tests and projects and 50% is all soft skills, participation in class, work in class, etc.   And then if your final mark is between 2.3 and 2.7 it is precisely your soft skills what would decide if you go to Gymnasium or not.   I would think they are important in secondary school as well, but that I do not know yet.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn’t realize the German school System is so numerical. Our German friends are happy with it, and the US public school system is horrible (former teacher here) so I have to hope that it’ll be positive for my kids. The lack of academic learning is kindergarten is definitely strange to me but is replicated by Waldorf schools and modeled in Europe’s highest achieving countries so I guess I’ll just see for myself and hope it all works out. My son just started an eltern initiative so I hope to be very involved. It’s a lot of outdoor time and child-centered choice. In the US, he was told what to do and when and, although we all loved it there, I’m excited to see what new skills develop from this push towards independent initiative. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Congrats, your brainwash was successful.

 

Let me ask you something. Why are you so aggressive and insulting?

 

Your contributions have been a constant stream of complaints and moaning about everything you don't like in Germany for years anyway (so constant that you might wonder why you're still here), but these regular attacks against people who simply have completely different experiences (!) than you are pretty superfluous, don't you think?

 

By the way, they are not proof of a successful education ... which system was responsible for it? 

 

Quote

I also talk with several parents that complain about the same.

 

'Gleich und gleich gesellt sich gern'. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I moved to Germany and first heard about the streaming system, I was interested to know a bit more. I looked up some numbers and found for example that while 50% of German children go to gymnasium, only 20% of Turkish children do. For Hauptschule the numbers were reversed. So you could say maybe Turkish parents don't push their kids as much to do well and maybe they don't even want their kids to go for higher education because they want them to take over their store or whatever. But can that really explain this huge gap?

 

Also the same statistics stated that while only 3% of German children go to Sonderschule, 7% of Turkish children do. 

 

I also found statistics on how much higher a child's grades have to be in order to get the gymnasium recommendation based on the parents nationality, education and income. Even though some states may have a hard requirement for certain grades to get the recommendation, it is also the teacher who grades. Not too long ago I read about an experiment where they sent a child's essay to a number of teachers to be graded. In half the cases the essay showed the name of a German child and in half the cases it was not a German name. The "German child" in this experiment got a notably better grade than the "foreign child".

 

So even though you could argue that the streaming system allows children to learn at their own pace and doesn't push them too much to get ahead, it may be pushing others down.

 

I remember reading on here about a girl who had dyslexia. She only got a Hauptschule recommendation. No talking to the teacher because "that is where she belongs". They ended up finding the cash to send her to private school instead and she completed her Abitur on time.

 

The German obsession with Sonderschule is another thing. A former boss of mine has a son who is not learning disabled, only slightly physically handicapped. He can walk just fine but wouldn't do well at sports. The system starting from Kita was hellbent that this child should go to Sonderschule. The father fought and lost. So before the age of 7 they've already clipped his wings and limited his education based on his physical status. It's very hard to work your way up to Abitur from Sonderschule.

 

So you all be happy if the system is working for you and your kids. It just doesn't work for all kids.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It definitely didn't work for my two kids. I hate to play the racism card, but my son was most definitely discriminated against by teachers as well as  other pupils. I won't go into details here but he was extremely bright -- I'd say even giften mathematically; he was reading  books far advance of his age by age 10. And yet they gave him a Realschulempfehlung. Even though he was perfectly bilingual English-German, he never got above a 2 in English once in the Realschule -- the teacher knew better. I don't want to go into details but that was the reason I sent him to private school in the UK.

My daughter was dyslexic and they were channeling her into the Sonderschule.

She too went to private school in the UK. She now has a first class honours degree from the UK and started a second degree at TUM Munich - which she had to break off because of pregnancy.

Both would have failed in the German system, for different reasons -- but being "foreign" didn't help.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 And I REALLY like that parents must be involved in the education of their kids, this is very important in Germany, at the beginning it was hard, but now I think the Germans got that part correct."

 

 

That was one mistake I made myself. I did not realise that parents are virtually co-teachers. I never practiced Diktat etc with my kids -- and unfortunately my husband didn't tell me that this was the requirement. I didn't do it because of my own schooling --  nobody ever gave me homework help and I didn't expect to have to do it. So I do claim some responsibility.

But I also think it's really not fair for the parents to have to co-teach and practice. It gives parents with a good academic background a huge advantage over, for instance, working class or immigrant families -- particularly since it's the mothers who do most of the co-teaching.

I anywat couldn't have co-taught mathematics. It was always my weakest subject, and I discovered that everything I knew from my own schooling was irrelevant here -- they use completely different methods for, for example, log division, multiplication, etc. I never understood the German methods.

I think teaching is the teacher's job, not the parents.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, LeonG said:

When I moved to Germany and first heard about the streaming system, I was interested to know a bit more. I looked up some numbers and found for example that while 50% of German children go to gymnasium, only 20% of Turkish children do. For Hauptschule the numbers were reversed. So you could say maybe Turkish parents don't push their kids as much to do well and maybe they don't even want their kids to go for higher education because they want them to take over their store or whatever. But can that really explain this huge gap?

 

The German system expects big involvement of the parents during the primary system.   Foreign parents might fail to provide the needed support for diverse reasons.

 

3 hours ago, LeonG said:

I also found statistics on how much higher a child's grades have to be in order to get the gymnasium recommendation based on the parents nationality, education and income.

 

Most times there is a correlation between income+education and how parents value the education of their kids. 

 

3 hours ago, LeonG said:

So even though you could argue that the streaming system allows children to learn at their own pace and doesn't push them too much to get ahead, it may be pushing others down.

 

I remember reading on here about a girl who had dyslexia. She only got a Hauptschule recommendation. No talking to the teacher because "that is where she belongs". They ended up finding the cash to send her to private school instead and she completed her Abitur on time.

 

The German obsession with Sonderschule is another thing. A former boss of mine has a son who is not learning disabled, only slightly physically handicapped. He can walk just fine but wouldn't do well at sports. The system starting from Kita was hellbent that this child should go to Sonderschule. The father fought and lost. So before the age of 7 they've already clipped his wings and limited his education based on his physical status. It's very hard to work your way up to Abitur from Sonderschule.

 

So you all be happy if the system is working for you and your kids. It just doesn't work for all kids.

 

I don't think it is possible to build a perfect system, there will be always people left behind for many reasons, but yes, I agree that people make mistakes and that the system should do a better effort to fix such mistakes and to cater a bit more for misfits, slightly disable kids, rebel kids, disadvantaged kids, etc.

 

2 hours ago, arunadasi said:

That was one mistake I made myself. I did not realise that parents are virtually co-teachers. I never practiced Diktat etc with my kids -- and unfortunately my husband didn't tell me that this was the requirement. I didn't do it because of my own schooling --  nobody ever gave me homework help and I didn't expect to have to do it. So I do claim some responsibility.

But I also think it's really not fair for the parents to have to co-teach and practice. It gives parents with a good academic background a huge advantage over, for instance, working class or immigrant families -- particularly since it's the mothers who do most of the co-teaching.

 

Yes, I agree that German academic parents have an advantage over immigrant families, but I disagree that they have big advantage over working class parents.   The support you have to provide is not rocket science, it is very basic stuff.  And if you can't provide it for whatever reason, you can always find a teenager in your neighborhood who will help your kid for a few €€, or worst case pay for school support (Nachhilfe), yes, that might be expensive, but we go back to how much you value the education of your kids.   In our case it was not easy to support them in German for obvious reasons.

 

The good thing of having to support your kids permanently is that you have a real knowledge of how well your kids are doing in the school, I find that marvelous.   Their knowledge growing in front of our eyes is a fantastic parent experience.

 

 

2 hours ago, arunadasi said:

I anywat couldn't have co-taught mathematics. It was always my weakest subject, and I discovered that everything I knew from my own schooling was irrelevant here -- they use completely different methods for, for example, log division, multiplication, etc. I never understood the German methods.

 

At the end it is all simple maths.  Yes, I had to learn it the German way just to be able to support the kids, nothing complicated, it is just primary school arithmetic.  If the kid can learn it, I assume any adult can learn it provided you actually want to do it.

 

2 hours ago, arunadasi said:

I think teaching is the teacher's job, not the parents.

 

That's the mistake.  The teacher is teaching the kid.  The parents are supporting them and making sure they are actually learning.   The alternative is ignoring everything and been surprised by an unexpected grade.

 

I can normally predict how my kids will do in tests because I know what they know, what they struggle with, what they are really bad at, and so on.  My guess is almost always in the ballpark and the difference is normally simple luck.   Again, I really like this.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, arunadasi said:

 

 

That was one mistake I made myself. I did not realise that parents are virtually co-teachers. I never practiced Diktat etc with my kids -- and unfortunately my husband didn't tell me that this was the requirement. I didn't do it because of my own schooling --  nobody ever gave me homework help and I didn't expect to have to do it. So I do claim some responsibility.

But I also think it's really not fair for the parents to have to co-teach and practice. It gives parents with a good academic background a huge advantage over, for instance, working class or immigrant families -- particularly since it's the mothers who do most of the co-teaching.

I anywat couldn't have co-taught mathematics. It was always my weakest subject, and I discovered that everything I knew from my own schooling was irrelevant here -- they use completely different methods for, for example, log division, multiplication, etc. I never understood the German methods.

I think teaching is the teacher's job, not the parents.

I thought the same as you coming from UK education.  As I also couldn't help my daughter here, the cost of Nachhilfe was my biggest moving budget fail. Luckily, we did find good Nachhilfe early on that's ongoing...even more necessary  in the final months up until Abitur. 

 

My daughter's current Nachhilfe lady is a newly qualified Realschule teacher.  Very interesting  to hear her opinion of the current education system. With ever growing class sizes, it sounds like the teachers struggle to deliver the basic curriculum and have little time to explain anything  that a child doesn't understand first time.  I was also surprised that teachers don't mark kid's homework, even in gymnasium.  No time.  Hence, even more of a need for parent/Nachhilfe help. I've also heard that good Nachhilfe is getting much harder to find, and more expensive.  The various Nachhilfe franchises pay the teachers a very low hourly rate so most get snapped up privately.  

 

My daughter helps a lower grade pupil at her school.  She gets several other requests for help though just doesn't have the time.  Her own Nachhilfe teacher wonders if she might be better off quitting as a school teacher and become a full time Nachhilfe teacher...potentially the same or even more money and far less hassle as at her school, she regularly has to deal with pupil issues involving the police. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

 

 

 

At the end it is all simple maths.  Yes, I had to learn it the German way just to be able to support the kids, nothing complicated, it is just primary school arithmetic.  If the kid can learn it, I assume any adult can learn it provided you actually want to do it.

 

I'm bad even at primary school maths! No kidding. I still can't do any mental arithmetic at all -- I add on my fingers. I think it's called dyscalculie or something -- there wasn't a name for it back in my day. I simply cannot keep numbers in my head. It's bad.

 

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

 

That's the mistake.  The teacher is teaching the kid.  The parents are supporting them and making sure they are actually learning.   The alternative is ignoring everything and been surprised by an unexpected grade.

 

I can normally predict how my kids will do in tests because I know what they know, what they struggle with, what they are really bad at, and so on.  My guess is almost always in the ballpark and the difference is normally simple luck.   Again, I really like this.

 

If I could do it all again, knowing what I know now, I would. I was too compacent; I didn't "get" the German system, buy also, I believe, there's a certain type of learning it's really suited for, and neither I nor my kids could ever have thrived. I would have ended up in the Hauptschule, I'm certain; both I and my daughter have more "soft" strengths, artistic, creative, that don't count for much in D. And my son was too individualistic. He figured out ways to calculate things not using the given system; he'd get the right results in maths, but he had to show how he did it, and never could. He'd write marvellous stories, and be told he used too much imagination. Things like that.

 

I was interested in following what they learned, but actually sitting down and practicing with them -- I never did that. I think there was a certain mental incompatability with the German system. All three of us did well in the UK (in my case, also Guyana) system. I also much prefer all day school -- slower, more time for everything.

But -- well, it's all over now. Thank goodness.

 

My granddaughter is also having problems in Austria, it appears. Her mother has decided to homeschool her. I'm not sure it's the right decision. She's here right now and obviously very, very bright but I can't see her thriving in a German school, and I assume Austria is similar.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, emkay said:

I thought the same as you coming from UK education.  As I also couldn't help my daughter here, the cost of Nachhilfe was my biggest moving budget fail. Luckily, we did find good Nachhilfe early on that's ongoing...even more necessary  in the final months up until Abitur. 

 

From what I get you are talking about Nachhilfe in the secondary school, which is a whole different story.   Actually, the Nachhilfe boom in secondary school is relative new, it became so big in the mid 00s and I am not so sure it is always really needed..   From what I have read, half of the teenagers going for Nachhilfe is because they had one grade in at least one of the major subjects (German, Math, English) between 2,5 and 3,5.  And 40% of them because they had one grade between 1,5 and 2,5.   So, in my opinion, most of those kids do not really need Nachhilfe and it is simply pressure from the parents to get better grades.

 

I would understand sending the kids for Nachhilfe when they are doing bad or when the kid is in some sort of disadvantage (i.e. immigrant kid). 

 

Some additional info about the streaming, in former time there were three types of schools, Gymnasium, Realschule and Hauptschule.   What many here do not know is that the number of students per class were different, 28 max in a Gymnasium class, 23 in a Realschule and 15 in a Hauptschule class, so this allowed the kids in the Hauptschule to get more attention from the teachers.  And you can criticize the Hauptschule as much as you want, and talk about the bad stigma they received, but truth is that 85% of the kids in the Hauptschule stream managed to get a Realschulabschluss (they successfully graduated at the same level as kids from the Realschule).   And for the politicians, the Hauptschule was a "problem" because they were too expensive.   Today we have Gymnasium and Sekundarschule, Gymnasium classes can go now up to 32 pupils and Sekundarschule to 25.   So the kids who learn much slower are now packed together with the normies in a big class.   I see this as a lose situation, but from what I read here, some fellow TTers think that this is an opportunity to be pushed up instead of down.  I am not so sure about that.

 

P.S., Some of my information might be slightly different in your state, I am in Berlin.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Krieg said:

Most times there is a correlation between income+education and how parents value the education of their kids. 

 

Sure but the statistics were not saying that children of uneducated parents were getting an average grade of x and children of educated parents getting x+y. What they were saying was that children of educated parents were getting a gymnasium recommendation with an average of x while the children of uneducated parents needed x+y in order to get the recommendation. 

 

So it is a tendency on the teachers part to discriminate. Just like the example I mentioned before where the teachers gave an essay a better grade if they thought a German child had written it.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LeonG said:

 

Sure but the statistics were not saying that children of uneducated parents were getting an average grade of x and children of educated parents getting x+y. What they were saying was that children of educated parents were getting a gymnasium recommendation with an average of x while the children of uneducated parents needed x+y in order to get the recommendation. 

 

I am not sure how this can be possible.  The rules for the Gymnasium recommendation are very clear, in Berlin is up to 2,2 for a straight recommendation.  And between 2,3 and 2,7 the result of the "Individual competence" evaluation comes into play, but this is done by ALL the teachers of the kid.

 

If there was true massive discrimination then all teachers are conspiring against the kids from uneducated parents.   And how do the teachers know the level of education of the parents?  As far as I can remember no one asked mine.

 

Maybe in some other states the recommendation is more subjective?  I have no idea, I can only talk about what I've seen.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now