Looking for case handler / adjudicator role, hoping to escape Brexit

81 posts in this topic

A patent assistant is a Patentanwaltsgehilfin and is a qualified trained paralegal with a piece of paper to show for it.  The term Assistentin is used to describe those who learned on the job without the diploma. A foreigner with no experience and minimal German would not command the salary of an Assistentin who in turn does not command the salary of a Gehilfin.

 

The German firms I worked for prioritised making maximum profit for minimum investment in their own personnel and infrastructure. The working environment reflected this.

 

Ads appear every month in the Patentanwaltskammerblatt if I recall correctly.

 

https://www.patentanwalt.de/en/trained-ip-paralegals.html

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 31.7.2019, 01:16:34, CuriousAidan said:

Thank you, I really never expected to get specific job suggestions on here and it seems like a job I could do.

 

As I already told you, I don't think your skills are a good fit for the German job market. On the other hand, I don't think you'll believe me until you try applying for yourself.

 

Quote

One description of the job they give is Admin Assistant. A search on Glassdoor Germany shows that the average salary for Admin Assistant is 48k. Given that Munich has a higher than average cost of living, would it be reasonable to suggest 55k in an application to them?

 

You could try, but you'd probably just give them a good laugh. In Berlin you'd be lucky to get half that for an admin position that is English only.

 

On 31.7.2019, 07:36:44, optimista said:

I left that world about 15 years ago and it came as a huge relief. I think my end salary at the time was about 40K which was considered good as a graduate with over a decade of experience in a specialised field and working in three languages for a subsidiary of Siemens, where it has to be said, the conditions were an improvement over private patent attorney firms.

 

48 minutes ago, optimista said:

 A foreigner with no experience and minimal German would not command the salary of an Assistentin who in turn does not command the salary of a Gehilfin.

 

Do you have any idea of how much someone like the OP could earn in Munich? I live in the economic black hole of Germany and the employers here try to take advantage of foreigners who can't speak German if they don't have hard to find technical skills.

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, optimista said:

A patent assistant is a Patentanwaltsgehilfin and is a qualified trained paralegal with a piece of paper to show for it.  The term Assistentin is used to describe those who learned on the job without the diploma. A foreigner with no experience and minimal German would not command the salary of an Assistentin who in turn does not command the salary of a Gehilfin.

 

The German firms I worked for prioritised making maximum profit for minimum investment in their own personnel and infrastructure. The working environment reflected this.

 

Ads appear every month in the Patentanwaltskammerblatt if I recall correctly.

 

https://www.patentanwalt.de/en/trained-ip-paralegals.html

 

understood.  I described the position and told him the candidate had no experience and that's what he told me.  so I shared it.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, engelchen said:

Do you have any idea of how much someone like the OP could earn in Munich?

 

...employers here try to take advantage of foreigners who can't speak German...

No. I have been off the market and out of the country too long. I am willing to bet though that high rents would offset any advantage of a higher big city salary.

 

Your second point hits the nail right on the head. I dare to suppose that nothing has changed, big city or no. Sigh. Asking the candidate to propose a salary rather than the employer stating a salary range puts the candidate at a disadvantage in negotiations. I am aware this is normal practice in Germany but it doesn't endear me to the practice. And of course if you want the job badly, they beat you down and you accept less than your worth in the hopes of a salary review further down the line, which can evaporate... I mention it as the OP raised the point and I have the T-shirt.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 01/08/2019, 13:07:42, engelchen said:

 

As I already told you, I don't think your skills are a good fit for the German job market. On the other hand, I don't think you'll believe me until you try applying for yourself.

 

I do believe you and appreciate your input. However most of the life coach and career advice books say not to give up on anything too easily, and there is the question of how well I can improve my skills to be a better fit (which I guess is about more than than just improving my German). 

 

While I like the idea of the freedom of movement in the EU, it starts to look a bit unbalanced if most of Europe have been taught English at school to be able to move to UK/Ireland/Malta and potentially get a good job, but in the other direction it may be less easy even to Europe's economic powerhouse. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, CuriousAidan said:

I do believe you and appreciate your input. However most of the life coach and career advice books say not to give up on anything too easily, and there is the question of how well I can improve my skills to be a better fit (which I guess is about more than than just improving my German). 

 

While I like the idea of the freedom of movement in the EU, it starts to look a bit unbalanced if most of Europe have been taught English at school to be able to move to UK/Ireland/Malta and potentially get a good job, but in the other direction it may be less easy even to Europe's economic powerhouse. 

 

.. that’s not the reason English is taught in schools. It’s a bit rich to have someone complaining that his native language is the world’s Lingua Franca. 

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, CuriousAidan said:

 

4 minutes ago, CuriousAidan said:

 

While I like the idea of the freedom of movement in the EU, it starts to look a bit unbalanced if most of Europe have been taught English at school to be able to move to UK/Ireland/Malta and potentially get a good job, but in the other direction it may be less easy even to Europe's economic powerhouse. 

So, your French, German, Spanish that you learned at school is fluent enough?

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 
 
 
42 minutes ago, CuriousAidan said:

While I like the idea of the freedom of movement in the EU, it starts to look a bit unbalanced if most of Europe have been taught English at school to be able to move to UK/Ireland/Malta and potentially get a good job, [...]. 

 

Do you really think that the rest of Europe spend money on educating their children (including teaching them English) so when they are grown up they can emigrate to the UK, Ireland, and Malta and pay taxes somewhere else? 

 

School children in the UK can also learn foreign languages as these are offered in schools, but many choose not to.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RedMidge said:

So, your French, German, Spanish that you learned at school is fluent enough?

Unfortunately not. And sadly any attempts at practising as a tourist are responded to in English!  (maybe with the exception of Spain)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, CuriousAidan said:

I do believe you and appreciate your input. However most of the life coach and career advice books say not to give up on anything too easily,

 

I'm not saying that you shouldn't move here, however, that you should only do so with your eyes open (and without lying to yourself). You need to do more research.

 

Quote

and there is the question of how well I can improve my skills to be a better fit (which I guess is about more than than just improving my German). 

 

One of the most important cultural differences between the German labour market and the Canadian /American (and possibly British) market is that your typical German HR Dept expects that employees follow a straight career path and work in the area in which they completed their apprenticeship or studied. Changing jobs often or industries frequently or even re-inventing yourself is still often looked on with suspicion here. Traditional German employers also tend to give more weight to formal qualifcations as opposed to looking at what someone is actually capable of doing.

 

There are industries that are more open to foreigners and less German such as IT, however, these jobs require technical skills that you don't seem to have.

 

Quote

While I like the idea of the freedom of movement in the EU, it starts to look a bit unbalanced if most of Europe have been taught English at school to be able to move to UK/Ireland/Malta and potentially get a good job, but in the other direction it may be less easy even to Europe's economic powerhouse. 

 

First of all, Freedom of Movement mainly benefits unskilled/low skilled labour. High skilled labour can easily obtain a work permit in Germany if they have skills needed here. 

 

More importantly, how many non-native English speakers did you have working with you as an adjudicator? How many EU citizens do you know who have good jobs there where only language skills are necessary?

 

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/08/2019, 13:26:26, Smaug said:

Do you really think that the rest of Europe spend money on educating their children (including teaching them English) so when they are grown up they can emigrate to the UK, Ireland, and Malta and pay taxes somewhere else? 

 

They mainly do it to communicate with the rest of the world.. I didn't make my point very well.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/08/2019, 17:13:09, engelchen said:

One of the most important cultural differences between the German labour market and the Canadian /American (and possibly British) market is that your typical German HR Dept expects that employees follow a straight career path and work in the area in which they completed their apprenticeship or studied. Changing jobs often or industries frequently or even re-inventing yourself is still often looked on with suspicion here. Traditional German employers also tend to give more weight to formal qualifcations as opposed to looking at what someone is actually capable of doing.

 

I would rather this were not the case..

Thanks for trying to keep my expectations realistic.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/08/2019, 17:13:09, engelchen said:

More importantly, how many non-native English speakers did you have working with you as an adjudicator? How many EU citizens do you know who have good jobs there where only language skills are necessary?

 

While I haven't done the exact job I posted, I take your point; in similar roles there have been some non-native speakers, but not many.

I have only met the odd Dutch person in management positions, and a couple of Germans at management consultancies.. 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about Luxembourg / Switzerland?  Are the opportunities better?  (I can speak French better than I can speak German)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6.8.2019, 22:32:30, CuriousAidan said:

What about Luxembourg / Switzerland?  Are the opportunities better?  (I can speak French better than I can speak German)

 

I'm the wrong person to ask about Switzerland. I hated living there. French is not much use in Zurich (although English is more widely used there than here). The Geneva housing situation is even worse that Zurich.

 

Both Luxembourg and Zurich have skilled jobs that pay well and often don't require English if you have the right skills. 

 

Have you made any progress in the job search?

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 05/09/2019, 17:02:03, engelchen said:

 

I'm the wrong person to ask about Switzerland. I hated living there. French is not much use in Zurich (although English is more widely used there than here). The Geneva housing situation is even worse that Zurich.

 

Both Luxembourg and Zurich have skilled jobs that pay well and often don't require English if you have the right skills. 

 

Have you made any progress in the job search?

 

 

Thanks for this and sorry for the slow reply. 

 

I am still looking online for jobs in the above countries and have not been successful yet. Maybe I need to move to one of them and try meet-ups etc.

 

What's more, the changes to IR35 rules from April 2020 are making British employers more reluctant to hire contractors in the UK.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Applying from abroad will usually be a disadvantage unless you are applying for top positions. Make a list of employers with international legal status such as the WHO, EPO, BIS and hit those first as these will be multilingual. They do employ pretty, young ladies with secretarial skills, English mother tongue and a spattering of other languages. It was my path. Overqualified I found it frustrating and soul-destroyingly boring long-term but it got me across the Channel and I did make some money out of it. The danger is then that you get labelled as a secretary and stay there. On the other hand you will be amongst an elite and possibly be w(oo)ed by a Swiss lawyer from a filthy rich internationally prominent family... I narrowly missed such an opportunity.:lol:

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 29.10.2019, 16:35:31, CuriousAidan said:

I am still looking online for jobs in the above countries and have not been successful yet. Maybe I need to move to one of them and try meet-ups etc.

 

If the types of jobs for which you are looking don't actually exist (or barely exist), networking won't help much. More importantly, how long can you afford to live abroad without a job? Do you really want to move abroad to join the working poor?

 

There was a thread last week that I really wanted to recommend you read, but unfortunately it seems to have been deleted. The Brit in the other thread has been here for 4 years and is currently working for the minimum wage in the hospitality industry and can't understand why it would be very difficult to receive a loan from a serious lender. Although you seem to have much better social skills than the other poster (I suspect social skills/attitude play a role in the reason the other poster cannot find a better position), it is a good example of what happens to foreigners who move to Germany unprepared.

 

On 29.10.2019, 16:35:31, CuriousAidan said:

What's more, the changes to IR35 rules from April 2020 are making British employers more reluctant to hire contractors in the UK.

 

What will happen to those jobs then? Since you are targeting jobs where the ability to write proper English is important, these jobs cannot easily be outsourced to Eastern Europe. Will employers be forced to hire more employees directly?

 

Why are you assuming that your job prospects will be better in a foreign country where you don't speak and write the local language at a level to compete with the locals for skilled jobs in non-technical fields?

 

On 30.10.2019, 09:29:02, optimista said:

Make a list of employers with international legal status such as the WHO, EPO, BIS and hit those first as these will be multilingual. They do employ pretty, young ladies with secretarial skills, English mother tongue and a spattering of other languages. It was my path. Overqualified I found it frustrating and soul-destroyingly boring long-term but it got me across the Channel and I did make some money out of it.

 

From his earlier posts, I got the impression that he was looking for a professional job in the 50k+ / year range.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30/10/2019, 09:29:02, optimista said:

Applying from abroad will usually be a disadvantage unless you are applying for top positions.

 

Applying for a junior position from the uk right before brexit, and not speaking german?

 

Honestly this isnt even a disadvantage its a complete dealbreaker, they stand no realistic chance. 

 

Even assuming the jobs exist and can be got from overseas, what are the odds of having it all wrapped up in time to get here and be "safe" as it were as an employee before brexit and work permits and whatever?

 

Hand on heart, I just dont think this idea is going anywhere, Aidan needs a better plan.

 

On 30/10/2019, 09:29:02, optimista said:

They do employ pretty, young ladies with secretarial skills

 

I could be wrong, but isnt Aidan normally a guys name?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now