Landlord wants to sell house - Negotiation Advice

31 posts in this topic

Hi, 

 

Our landlord wants to sell the house we rent. We don't want to move. 

 

We have been here 10years. In this time the house value has gone from 280 to about 820k.

 

My understanding is that he will get 20-25 percent less if he sells with sitting tenants to an investor. 

 

Firstly, if he sells is it correct we by law can stay for 10years. The only shorter option for him is to claim he needs it for family member or him. In which case we get 9 months notice. Since, we have a regular increase in the contract we couldnt in future get a huge rent increase applied to force us out in either circumstance. 

 

He offered us 10k to move out with no obligation to renovate just go. But on my calculation he could be short 100k+ if he sells with a sitting tennent. He also seems to be marketing to families. 

 

I told him 30k and we will go quickly. 

 

Has anyone else been in a similar situation and has any advice on what kind of deal you managed to negotiate? 

 

He claims this is tax free to me, but I doubt the whole sum could be.  Probably only the actual moving costs then the rest at marginal rate. 

 

I will of course consult the mietvehrein and Steuerberater but if someone already knows something it would be useful info. 

 

Any thoughts gratefully received. 

 

Cheers, 

Jono

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

by offering him option of 30K to leave.. you have shown him that there are no real ties between yourself and the property/area..

 

Just shown an element of Greed.. 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

by offering him option of 30K to leave.. you have shown him that there are no real ties between yourself and the property/area..

 

Just shown an element of Greed.. 

 

 

Everything has a value. She has set the value of her attachment to the apartment at 30,000. 

 

I can’t think of any material thing that I couldn’t put a price on. I really like some of my stuff, but if someone offered me a few million, I’d leave it all (after formatting my hard disks, of course. :lol: ) 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are renting the apartment from someone who actually owns it. The owner wants to sell it. You either buy it yourself or look for another apartment. It can be tough. The owner offers you 10k to move out, no hassle, no need to worry about any obligation. You can just leave. You want more money. Your desire to demand more money is probably justifiable, probably not. But, If you refuse to move, the owner can take you to court. If you still do not come into an agreement, the court will decide on your case. If the owner wins, you have to move out and you will be evicted within months. If you win, then the owner will have to wait until the time that you have chosen to leave. Although there have been several cases that the court is in favor of the landlord.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, thegreatdivide said:

If you win, then the owner will have to wait until the time that you have chosen to leave. Although there have been several cases that the court is in favor of the landlord.

 

If he loses he will have to pay the court costs. And if he did say 30k to move in writing this is something the court will not look too kindly upon.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, thegreatdivide said:

You are renting the apartment from someone who actually owns it. The owner wants to sell it. You either buy it yourself or look for another apartment. It can be tough. The owner offers you 10k to move out, no hassle, no need to worry about any obligation. You can just leave. You want more money. Your desire to demand more money is probably justifiable, probably not. But, If you refuse to move, the owner can take you to court. If you still do not come into an agreement, the court will decide on your case. If the owner wins, you have to move out and you will be evicted within months. If you win, then the owner will have to wait until the time that you have chosen to leave. Although there have been several cases that the court is in favor of the landlord.

 

Technically correct. But here is no "lease at will" for private leases in Germany. The landlord would have to claim that they need it for themselves or a close family member (Eigenbedarf). And even then they may or may not prevail in court.

The current landlord will have a very hard time to prove Eigenbedarf, given that they were prepared to sell the property in the first place. And it is the current landlord with whom Jono is negotiating - not the future owner, whose claim for Eigenbedarf might be stronger.

Getting more money for selling a property without tenants is not a valid reason for terminating a lease in Germany.

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I told him 30k and we will go quickly

 

I am playing devil’s advocate to an extent here, I know this kind of thinking is common in Germany, but does it not strike you that you may be practising a form of extortion? Surely a reasonable notice period of a year leaving you time to find something else would be more appropriate and recognise the fact that this is ultimately his property.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

by that logic, the landlord is attempting bribery by offering 10k to get them out.  

 

yes he owns the place but it's also appropriate to recognize that they are long term tenants with an unbefristet lease which will be transferred in full to any new owner, and it is NOT in their best interest to up and move without compensation so that he can make more profit on the sale of his property.

 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I don't think I've ever seen covered in posts on this topic:  is compensation from landlord to tenant for the purposes of getting them to move out taxable?

 

I have to think it is.  OP you should inform yourself about that before you forge ahead, and especially before any money changes hands.  ETA:  I see that is already on your radar, please come back and let us know what you find out!

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The OP should also consider that if the current landlord does sell the property and the new own claims it for their own use then they will not get anything!

Or, if the new landlord buys it as an investment then they might be very happy to already have a tenant, and again the OP will get nothing.

 

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

by offering him option of 30K to leave.. you have shown him that there are no real ties between yourself and the property/area..

 

Just shown an element of Greed.. 

 

Greed? I spent more than 10k the last time I moved! 3500€ for repairs, 1500€ for moving company, 2000 to paint the new place, 1500€ in different furniture and some 2000€ in house improvements, including garden!

Plus 7 months of searching and visiting places! I wouldn't move out now for less than 30k€, I'm with the OP on this one!

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Greed? I spent more than 10k the last time I moved! 3500€ for repairs, 1500€ for moving company, 2000 to paint the new place, 1500€ in different furniture and some 2000€ in house improvements, including garden!

Plus 7 months of searching and visiting places! I wouldn't move out now for less than 30k€, I'm with the OP on this one!

 

But then I assume that was not a rental.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting topic and one I've just been through myself.

 

I rented a house for 11 years and the landlady finally decided she wanted to knock it down and build an apartment complex. She tried to get me out by giving me a few weeks notice, all illegal and I think she didn't realise I knew my rights and would also go to a solicitor.

Eventually she gave me the required 9 months notice but flatly refused to financially compensate me.

 

In this current housing climate I was getting nowhere with finding a new place, so OP please don't think it will be easy to get a new place, especially around Munich!

 

Skip forwrd to 8 months into the notice period, just a month left and still getting nowhere with finding somewhere new.

Finally she started to try and help a little and luckily about the same time I found somewhere I liked and the owners were happy to consider me as tenant.

They offered me the place and finally my landlady offered a financial package including renovation of the new place, moving costs and she even paid my new Kaution, a total package I believe of around €16K.

 

OP, yes, look to try and get a deal from them, but don't expect it to be easy to find a new place which in turn means try to avoid a leaving contract where a specific date is mentioned for you to leave because that would mean you leave then, if you have somewhere or not.

Good luck,

Malty

 

 

7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Lenny Nero said:

the future owner, whose claim for Eigenbedarf might be stronger.

That´s the elephant in the room. It´s quite likely that the new owner will have such a claim and you wouldn´t get any compensation. So better don´t raise the stakes too high.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, jono said:

My understanding is that he will get 20-25 percent less if he sells with sitting tenants to an investor.

 

An investor does not care about tenants, they want to rent the property.  They will care about the current rent you are paying, the conditions of the contract and how fast he can raise if they want to raise it.

 

Thinking the landlord will get 25% less because you are there is nonsense.

 

21 hours ago, jono said:

Firstly, if he sells is it correct we by law can stay for 10years.

 

Who told you this?  The new buyer might be a normal person who wants to leave in the property, so they will claim it and kick you out.   The process will be long and it will take money and stress.   But it is a two ways road, it will take as well your money, time and give you stress.

 

The buyer might already be mentally and financially prepared to face the headache if the property value, location and conditions are worth.

 

 

21 hours ago, jono said:

The only shorter option for him is to claim he needs it for family member or him. In which case we get 9 months notice. Since, we have a regular increase in the contract we couldnt in future get a huge rent increase applied to force us out in either circumstance.

 

Everything they have to do is implementing some sort of renovation and then they could increase the rent.   Maybe it is time to change that boiler, change the windows for ones with better insulation or renovate the toilet or kitchen.

 

And since you are still renting the property, all renovations will be tax deductible.

 

21 hours ago, jono said:

He offered us 10k to move out with no obligation to renovate just go.

 

Sounds a reasonable offer.

 

21 hours ago, jono said:

But on my calculation he could be short 100k+ if he sells with a sitting tennent. He also seems to be marketing to families.

 

Investors, families, get your info straight.

 

21 hours ago, jono said:

I told him 30k and we will go quickly. 

 

Probably shooting for 3x the initial offer which was already reasonable was not a smart move.  But you never know.

 

 

14 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Greed? I spent more than 10k the last time I moved! 3500€ for repairs, 1500€ for moving company, 2000 to paint the new place, 1500€ in different furniture and some 2000€ in house improvements, including garden!

Plus 7 months of searching and visiting places! I wouldn't move out now for less than 30k€, I'm with the OP on this one!

 

While it is understandable that moving has costs and it is a pain in the butt, what is this idea here that the landlord has to cover for your moving costs?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

But then I assume that was not a rental.

 

It was.

 

8 minutes ago, Krieg said:

While it is understandable that moving has costs and it is a pain in the butt, what is this idea here that the landlord has to cover for your moving costs?

The idea is that you are being illegally kicked out. To make it legal, he has to convince you to move out. Why would you move out if it means a lot of expenses?

 

I had the same situation in Portugal more than 10 years ago. We were renting a 110sqm office. The owner found someone that wanted to buy it and occupy it. He offered us 15.000€ to move out, which we refused, as it would cost us at least 25.000€ to move out. We asked for 30.000€ (5.000€ for bothering to move) and of course he refused.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/16/2019, 11:44:05, jono said:

 

My understanding is that he will get 20-25 percent less if he sells with sitting tenants to an investor. 

 

 

That probably depends on how much rent you are paying. An investor would have to take over your lease contract, but if you are paying a good rent, it might be attractive rather than off-putting for a certain type of buyer.  

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the comments so far. 

A wide set of opinions.

 

From my perspective it's easy to imagine significant costs to move, kitchen, storage, renting temporary place, caution... . Also risk in finding something new in the Munich Market. I will be starting a new job on probzeit too. 

 

In the end I don't have to be reasonable, the landlord mislead me about certain additional costs when we rented. I don't owe him a favour. If it's in his interest to have us move I have no reason not to negotiate hard. 

 

Of course you run the risk of no deal, but he's already moved 5k more. I suspect there is a least 8k more to be had if he has an offer in hand. 

 

I also had feedback from someone who is a landlord with a portfolio of properties, he said you should reasonable expect somewhere between 20-30k.

 

Let's see 😁

 

 

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The new owner has the right to move in. He can kick you out and claim the place for himself. It will take a few months but it will happen regardless. 

 

If the new owner does not want to move in then it might be more difficult to kick you (e.g. an investor). However, an investor might be O.K. with the idea - depending on how high is your rent. 

 

If I were you, I would ask 20k and offer the following: 

- Sign / agree that the lease contract will end in 3 months 

- Basic renovation of the place (1-2k from my side) 

- Be friendly / available when the owner comes with potential buyers 

 

The landlord has the advantage that: 

- He can look for buyers while he still gets rent from you 

- By agreeing to help him (renovation + your availability to be home...etc), you increase the chance for a high purchase 

- He has a signed contract that says that you will move so there is no option restriction for the new buyer 

 

However, if the owner sells it to an investor, you may get 18k (20k-renovation)  and stay in a renovated apartment for similar price for what you are paying now. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one can guess what will happen with a new owner.  Even if the new owner wants to claim eigenbedarf, they will still need to prove they have more "need" for the place than the current tenants do, and the tenants will still have their protected right to proper notice to vacate, which for the OP is 9 months.  Offering to give up the place with three months notice *in Munich* is absolutely bonkers.  For the overwhelming majority of people in this area, it takes a lot longer than that to find a new rental and they would be inviting loads of pain/drama by making an arrangement like that.

 

Offering to pay for renovation themselves and assuming that cost would end at 2k is a strange recommendation and could be very risky as well.   

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now