Germany secondary school final exam (math)

44 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, SmurfLee said:

Are all students in Gymnasium having intention to go to college to learn natural science or engineering?

 

Pertaining to what Krieg said, that would be that their parents have the intention, not the student. At least in some cases.

 

My 11 yr. old grandson is in Gymnasium. He still wants to be a star soccer player and play for Bayern Munich.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

Most of them have no idea what they will do with their lives when the decision to go to Gymnasium is taken.   A big part of them still do not know when they get their Abi.

 

But what I observed is that students with any talents in math physics stuff are just so obvious before they go to high school.

Students who are not interested in math physics stuff they show their disinterest before they go to high school.

They may not know what to do in the future, but to me it seems very clear, one knows before high school if one is interested in math physics or not. I believe that you need a bit of talents in certain thinking capability to do well in these classes.

Likewise, language as well, need certain type of talents.

 

Again, they may now know what to do, but they most likely know if they enjoy math physics classes.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, fraufruit said:

 

Pertaining to what Krieg said, that would be that their parents have the intention, not the student. At least in some cases.

 

My 11 yr. old grandson is in Gymnasium. He still wants to be a star soccer player and play for Bayern Munich.

 

Then, my question is:

 

   Are the courses in Gymnasium designed for students who is interested in majoring natural science in college?

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My daughter is currently looking into various university options.  Best to contact a university directly and ask about their entrance criteria.  Some refer to an Abitur average across all subjects taken...(Numerus clausus?) depends what you want to study.

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7 minutes ago, SmurfLee said:

 

Then, my question is:

 

   Are the courses in Gymnasium designed for students who is interested in majoring natural science in college?

Not necessarily.  Can you summarise the general point of your thread...are your questions hypothetical or do they relate to your own specific situation/goals.

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3 minutes ago, SmurfLee said:

 

Then, my question is:

 

   Are the courses in Gymnasium designed for students who is interested in majoring natural science in college?

 

They are designed for what the Germans call an "academic" kid.   So the curriculum is tougher than in other types of schools and they make emphasis in Math, German and some other subjects like physics, biology, chemistry, etc.   In the first years the curriculum is the same for everyone but later on the students have some level of flexibility and they can choose some subjects.  

 

I don't know what your obsession with natural science is, a bit over 1/4 of the high school students in Germany are in a Gymnasium, so I don't expect that all of them are planning to study natural science.

 

Honestly, plenty kids are in the Gymnasium because they were pushed there.   In many cases they won't chose a path that needs an Abitur.  But in the other hand, if they didn't start from the beginning in the correct type of school then some doors might be closed when they finally come to a decision.

 

I myself am not a big fan of the whole streaming thing, but I can understand its intention and I think it works in general for the majority.  The problem is that it is not flexible enough to cater with the few misfits.

 

Just now, emkay said:

Not necessarily.  Can you summarise the general point of your thread...are your questions hypothetical or do they relate to your own specific situation/goals.

 

By now I think she is in general just trolling.   You can see that there is no honest interest in understanding anything.

 

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9 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

They are designed for what the Germans call an "academic" kid.   So the curriculum is tougher than in other types of schools and they make emphasis in Math, German and some other subjects like physics, biology, chemistry, etc.   In the first years the curriculum is the same for everyone but later on the students have some level of flexibility and they can choose some subjects.  

 

"academic" can be natural and social sciences.

After the first year, they can make choices. But do they all have to take the same math final exam (which seems rather hard for social science type person) even if they chose with the flexibility to learn more social science?

 

 

9 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

I don't know what your obsession with natural science is, a bit over 1/4 of the high school students in Germany are in a Gymnasium, so I don't expect that all of them are planning to study natural science.

 

  This is what I am talking about. If they are not planning to study natural science, and they have to take the rather hard math final exam, it does not seem to me sensible.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Krieg said:

By now I think she is in general just trolling.   You can see that there is no honest interest in understanding anything.

 

 

I am sorry if I gave you such impression.

I am only trying to understand.

because the math and physics final test in BW are real hard. And I do not see why would any one need to learn them in such high level if they are academic kids in social science.

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36 minutes ago, SmurfLee said:

because the math and physics final test in BW are real hard.

What's your point of reference concerning "hard"? After all, in Germany, there are millions of people around you who have passed these sorts of tests in the past, and there will be a whole bunch of young people who will pass that in the future annually.

 

On ‎06‎.‎05‎.‎2019‎ ‎14‎:‎52‎:‎12, SmurfLee said:

it would make me feel so good if I can get close to perfect score while others get low scores.

As I said, there are millions of people around you who have passed those - as you say - "real hard" tests... I repeat: Millions

 

Have fun:

Mittelstufe.jpg.f9da806c0fcb55f871515360

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6 hours ago, Krieg said:

This wouldn't make any sense.   The students were already streamed, the ones who were not good at math went to other types of schools, and here we have the Gymnasium.   Streaming again would make things really too complicated.

 

This I struggle with in Germany. The different levels of schooling only really differentiate between kids who are academically inclined, those who are more of a do-type than a book-learn type, and those who find learning hard for whatever reason, and need less in their curriculum if they are to be successful.

 

The system does not distinguish between arty types and stem types, and of course you can be absolutely brilliant at writing whilst being utterly crap at maths. And possibly even more so in the other direction. 

 

Streaming allows for this, and that's not rocket science. It can make for complicated timetabling, if you literally separate the abilities,  but it is not impossible. Gymnasium teachers earn well here. My former colleagues who have successfully segued into the German system literally cannot believe how easy teaching is here and how little is required, and the lack of a concept of differentiation in the classroom would  be one of the 'unbelievables' - we are used to providing for at least 3 levels of attainment in any one class. That's the whole point. Otherwise you are a lecturer and not a teacher.

 

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1 hour ago, kiplette said:

The system does not distinguish between arty types and stem types

 

It does in a way, since there are Gymnasien with different profiles, for example:

 

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Are you saying that one can choose a Gymnasium? My grandson lives in Vierkirchen and must go to the only one available out there.

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Thanks for that. I think he is already traveling quite a distance to get to the nearest one. I haven't heard any complaints. I was just curious.

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We have 3 here, one is 'sport' and one is 'music' but that's it, really, which I don't think really addresses the issue of providing for strengths and weaknesses in different subjects.

 

It is good that schools with different profiles exist in some places, but I don't think that is the essential issue - there is a lack of willingness in general to grapple with individual needs. Overall I find the schooling available here offers good opportunities, but this is one area which I think is weak. There are obviously always exceptions, and we have had some truly world class teachers. They comment that there is an emphasis during training on subject matter and theory rather than the requirements of learners, which is no real surprise.  

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On 5/7/2019, 1:25:25, SmurfLee said:

 

In order to go to University of Heidelberg to major in literature, do I must graduate from Gymnasium?

 

It has been explained to me by Germans this way:  

 

There are multiple ways to get into Uni and Gymnasium is not the only path, BUT, for some people, hiring managers for example, alternative paths are seen as a negative when reviewing a Lebenslauf.  

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On 5/7/2019, 3:04:05, SmurfLee said:

Students who are not interested in math physics stuff they show their disinterest before they go to high school.

The German system streams students far too young for that to be reliable. 

 

 

On 5/7/2019, 3:04:05, SmurfLee said:

one knows before high school if one is interested in math physics or not. I believe that you need a bit of talents in certain thinking capability to do well in these classes.

'Talents' are not drawn out of the ether, they too are cultivated and trainable to an extent. So yes some will be born virtuosos, but the majority are trained. In other words, there may be some genetic predisposition, but from everything I understand on the subject, it's the minor contribution in the "nature vs. nurture" dichotomy.

 

On 5/7/2019, 3:04:05, SmurfLee said:

Again, they may now know what to do, but they most likely know if they enjoy math physics classes.

Most kids would probably find 100 other things they enjoy more than maths or physics. 

 

1 hour ago, balticus said:

alternative paths are seen as a negative when reviewing a Lebenslauf.  

That'll be yet another sprout of the classic German One-Right-Wayism rhizome.

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Actually, Shorty did the maths Abi last week, and said it was really quite difficult - the biggest problem being that there were some questions covering material that they had not been taught in school!

Bearing in mind that the whole school curriculum is set by the Kultus Ministerium, it really is quite shitty to be tested on parts of maths that you haven't been taught, don't you think?

 

As for Shorty, well, maths is kind of a hobby of hers, and she know a lot more than most kids her age, so whilst she has signed the petition, she has quite a good feeling as to her result.

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16 hours ago, alderhill said:

'Talents' are not drawn out of the ether, they too are cultivated and trainable to an extent.

 

Yes, to "an extent", like passing an exam, etc.

But I have observed too many examples.

You can cultivate and train to get a degree or so, but such people can never do excellent job on the topic. There are always outliers, please do not give some rare cases.

Schools system cannot be designed to take care for all indivuduls including outliers.

 

16 hours ago, alderhill said:

 

Most kids would probably find 100 other things they enjoy more than maths or physics. 

 

   Yes, but we are talking about the subjects they are given, German, math, physics, chemisty, biology, history, geography, ...

 

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On 5/7/2019, 4:17:59, franklan said:

What's your point of reference concerning "hard"? After all, in Germany, there are millions of people around you who have passed these sorts of tests in the past, and there will be a whole bunch of young people who will pass that in the future annually.

 

As I said, there are millions of people around you who have passed those - as you say - "real hard" tests... I repeat: Millions

 

Have fun:

Mittelstufe.jpg.f9da806c0fcb55f871515360

 

This is just toooooooo easy for people who are intersted in science, but would be super difficult to a potential good writer.

I think this is 8th grade math in China.

In BW math final exam, I saw some calculus and some other stuff a bit challenging.

My sister was poor in math, but she won several prize with her writing in her school years.

 

Zhongshu Qian is very famous writer, one of my favorite. He got math score 0 at college entrance exam, but perfect score in Chinese and English, and was accepted by the best University in China.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, SmurfLee said:

I think this is 8th grade math in China.

...

Zhongshu Qian is very famous writer, one of my favorite. He got math score 0 at college entrance exam, but perfect score in Chinese and English, and was accepted by the best University in China.

The Chinese school system is really nothing to put on a pedestal, at all.

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