All Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft Grounded

220 posts in this topic

19 hours ago, razorsandroses said:

I think it's a fair statement to say that at this point Boeing needs to do a full recall of ALL their MAX model aircraft and grant full refunds to the airliners that purchased them. ...

 

 

With aircraft a recall is not an efficient way of fixing the problem.  Boeing themselves only have a few engineers that could fix any problem, so if they recalled them then it would take longer to fix.

 

The airlines actually have more people who are skilled in fixing problems.  So normally Boeing/Airbus etc. issue a fix and include detail instructions of what to do.  This might also include replacing parts with new, better designed ones, and/or software upgrades and also includes details on how to test and maintain the differences.

 

You have to remember that an aircraft is not like a car, it under goes a lot of maintenance every year.  Small problems are normally identified by the computer and maintenance is then schedule to fix it.  There are visual checks before every take-off and a log book of problems is kept in the plane.

 

Then there are the regular full maintenance checks (see link), which can take 50 man hours to 50,000 for the D-Check where basically the airplane is taken apart!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_maintenance_checks

 

 

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I just read a story which said that Boeings new 777x family which are due to be delivered from next year, may also be delayed.  

This will impact Lufthansa, as they are actually the first customer for this new aircraft.

 

Quote

Certification could be delayed for the larger Boeing 777X, for which Lufthansa is a launch customer, as European regulators give it more a stringent review, the German airline’s CEO said.

 

“Overall, foreign authorities will be more thorough in accepting American certifications. I think that for me is one of the outputs of these terrible events in Indonesia and Ethiopia already,” Chief Executive Carsten Spohr told reporters.

 

 

Source:   https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-regulators-analysis-idUSKCN1R72LB

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Boeing’s 737 Max line of aircraft is grounded indefinitely as the company and safety officials attempt to figure out why two of the popular new planes have crashed within a year of each other. But with the planes not ferrying passengers anytime soon, airlines have to store them somewhere, which means they have to be flown elsewhere in the meantime.

One such transport flight is now making headlines after the pilot was forced to return to his departing airport after the plane experienced some kind of engine trouble. The emergency landing was pulled off, and the plane and its pair of pilots made it back unscathed.

 

Not even safe enough to fly to a storage place. I wonder when pilots will refuse to fly them at all.

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2 hours ago, LeCheese said:

facinating video

 

The real reason Boeing's new plane crashed twice

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing new there, the summation about the engines, the flawed work-around and the lack of pilot traning came out almost immediately after the 2nd crash. What hasn't been fully explained yet is why the FAA took Boeing's word on the suitability of the software and why the FAA allowed Boeing to do it's own flight safety checks and effectively allowed Boeing to self certify the aircraft as fit to fly.

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2 hours ago, French bean said:

why the FAA took Boeing's word on the suitability of the software

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/04/20/did-faa-outsource-air-safety-boeing-and-other-companies/3497255002/

 

"Corporate self-inspection under FAA auspices has been allowed in various forms for decades.... The rationale was that the private sector inspectors could keep tabs on the more routine features of aircraft under development, allowing the FAA's team to focus on the harder, riskier systems... The FAA estimates it would need to hire 10,000 more inspectors at a cost of $1.8 billion in additional payroll costs if the program didn't exist. "

 

The US governments have always relied on the private sector for inspections, legislation, regulations and oversight.  Lobbyists, industry experts, revolving door employees all contribute to the mix.  Given the absolute scale of federal, state and local government (21+ million employees) and the breadth and depth of their responsibilities,  a failure like the 737 is amazing it doesn't happen more often.  Most important is the response to mitigate that failure in the future.

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On 3/27/2019, 11:18:30, dj_jay_smith said:

The airlines actually have more people who are skilled in fixing problems.  So normally Boeing/Airbus etc. issue a fix and include detail instructions of what to do.  This might also include replacing parts with new, better designed ones, and/or software upgrades and also includes details on how to test and maintain the differences.

 

You have to remember that an aircraft is not like a car, it under goes a lot of maintenance every year.  Small problems are normally identified by the computer and maintenance is then schedule to fix it.  There are visual checks before every take-off and a log book of problems is kept in the plane.

 

Except when they don't...

 

German government planes have had a series of embarrassing mechanical problems in the past several months.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/lufthansa-launches-probe-after-plane-that-was-to-carry-german-president-almost-crashed/a-48508866

 

 

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Boeing Co. limited the role of its own pilots in the final stages of developing the 737 MAX flight-control system implicated in two fatal crashes, departing from a longstanding practice of seeking their detailed input, people familiar with the matter said.

As a result, Boeing test pilots and senior pilots involved in the MAX’s development didn’t receive detailed briefings about how fast or steeply the automated system known as MCAS could push down a plane’s nose, these people said. Nor were they informed that the system relied on a single sensor—rather than two—to verify the accuracy of incoming data about the angle of a plane’s nose, they added.

Investigators have linked faulty sensor data to the flight-control system’s misfire, which led to crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia that took 346 lives.

The extent of pilots’ lack of involvement hasn’t been previously reported and could bring fresh scrutiny from investigators and regulators already looking into Boeing’s design and engineering practices. It isn’t clear whether greater pilot participation would have altered the ultimate design of the flight-control system. But the scaling back of pilots’ involvement and their lack of detailed knowledge about the plane’s system add to the list of questions about engineering and design practices facing the Chicago-based aerospace giant.

A Boeing spokesman said test pilots and senior pilots didn’t have less of a role in the design, briefing and testing of the final version of MCAS when compared with their counterparts who worked on previous models featuring important new systems.

 

 

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According to 

http://avherald.com/h?article=4c534c4a/0052&opt=0


 

Quote

 

On Apr 27th 2019 it became known, that four independent whistleblowers, current and former Boeing employees, had called the FAA hotline for whistleblowers regarding aviation safety concerns on Apr 5th 2019...

 

The FAA believes these reports may open completely new investigative angles into the causes of the two crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia.

 

 

 

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Boeing in moving the engines so far forward that affected the center of gravity enough to case the airplane to become un-stable in several parts of the flight envelope.

Military airplanes, like the Eurofighter, F35 etc - have special software to be able to handle un-stable flight charisitics, which is done  to improve performance, particularly during maneuvering.  

When  Boeing made changes the basic flight charisitics, they should have updated  the flight control computers to allow the airplane to fly in an un-stable way, of course this is not normally required of a civilian aircraft

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WTF?

 

 

Quote

 

Settlements to the families of 346 people who died in the two catastrophic Boeing Max plane crashes will be calculated, in part, by how long the victims knew they were doomed.

Lawyers handling claims against the US aerospace company said the longer the passengers and crew were aware of their desperate fate, the larger the likely payout.

 

 

They are dead already. How will this amount of time lessen the grief for the families?? The money can't even do that.

The rest here

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On 5/6/2019, 3:44:35, Chris Marston said:

This will not strengthen their case in court.

True that. A great deal of adhesive supplied to Boeing is also starting to fail prematurely. I know of this first hand from one of their chemists.

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15 hours ago, fraufruit said:

WTF?

 

They are dead already. How will this amount of time lessen the grief for the families?? The money can't even do that.

The rest here

Indeed, money cannot compensate for such a loss. If at all, it would be a better measure to "calculate" how much hardship is caused to the victim's relatives.

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15 hours ago, fraufruit said:

WTF?

They are dead already. How will this amount of time lessen the grief for the families?? The money can't even do that.

The rest here

When calculating compensation for pain and suffering, determining how long the victims actually suffered before death is a key factor.

 

8 hours ago, Fromm said:

True that. A great deal of adhesive supplied to Boeing is also starting to fail prematurely. I know of this first hand from one of their chemists.

5cd92dcf98ad2_i-dont-believe-you1.jpg.e2

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You don't believe in faulty adhesive supply or you don't believe I know a chemist that works for Boeing?

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Off topic kind of.

 

You ask me it is the sickness in our current society of everything being done on the cheap. All everyone cares about is saving money. In every company, even medicine... This is wreaking havoc everywhere upon us!

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