All Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft Grounded

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You just don't book the flight if it is a machine you don't want AFAIK. Whether they will refund your money if they change aircraft or not I just don't know and can't find anything. It seems to me it would be hard to use another type of plane when bookings are already made and seats already chosen and paid for especially because people now pay more for window or aisle seats, etc. and they may not be available on a new configuration.

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1 hour ago, yesterday said:

What actual happens, if you refuse to fly on a certain type of aeroplane ?

 

Do you just lose your money ?, because if you refuse to fly, you are just a no show to them - which you would lose the money

 

If you wanted to re-book on another flight, there's is normally a re-booking fee - do you get charged that ?

 

Just interested

 

Yes you would lose your money!

 

The airline sells you a ticket from A -> B, as part of the contract are the times, the price, and the class of travel, and any stated services (baggage, meals, etc.)

The contract does not include:

A specific seat

A specific type of seat

A specific aircraft

 

For most people it makes no difference.  But when you are travelling in business or first class then some airlines have different "versions" and variations of the products on different aircraft.  So people might prefer one over the other and book that exact flight expecting that aircraft, but then it is changed by the airlines. (This happens a lot when an airline introduces a new product.  For example:  British Airways this week announced a new long-haul business class product.  It will be first introduced in the Autumn, but it takes many years before all long-haul aircraft will have this.)

 

I have read many cases where customers have complained to airlines because of this and tried to get flights changed or get refunds because they expected a specific aircraft or type of seat but didn't get anything because of this.

 

 

However, in such a case like this a good airline would allow you to re-book onto another flight for no charge (assuming this is possible).  Which I believe Southwest were allowing people to do.  But this might not always be possible.

 

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27 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

The airline sells you a ticket from A -> B, as part of the contract are the times, the price, and the class of travel, and any stated services (baggage, meals, etc.)

The contract does not include:

A specific seat

A specific type of seat

A specific aircraft

 

Umm.. it does with a number of airlines, KLM, SAS and I am sure many others.

I know which type of plane, my specific seat and which type of seat ( extra leg room and the like ) when i book.

 

I just flew to Chile and Back with KLM, I knew which seat, which type of seat and which plane (777) when I booked.

Same with SAS which I use often. They once changed the plane  from an ATR 72-600 to a Dash 8 Q400 and I refused to fly, they rerouted me on a later ( ATR ) flight

 

Edit. Also, on the way back they initially issued us with  economy boarding passes and seats way back in the aircraft, ( we had rebooked the flight to a later date ) and told us there was nothing they could do but shortly after a demand for a refund & a threat to take my business to Iberia, they magically produced the seats we had originally booked.

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Every time I have booked a flight they always have the make of the airplane written there before I proceed to the check out. Sometimes they do change the plane though depending on the amount of tickets sold or availabilty of the aircraft.

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1 hour ago, LeCheese said:

 

Umm.. it does with a number of airlines, KLM, SAS and I am sure many others.

I know which type of plane, my specific seat and which type of seat ( extra leg room and the like ) when i book.

 

I just flew to Chile and Back with KLM, I knew which seat, which type of seat and which plane (777) when I booked.

Same with SAS which I use often. They once changed the plane  from an ATR 72-600 to a Dash 8 Q400 and I refused to fly, they rerouted me on a later ( ATR ) flight

 

Edit. Also, on the way back they initially issued us with  economy boarding passes and seats way back in the aircraft, ( we had rebooked the flight to a later date ) and told us there was nothing they could do but shortly after a demand for a refund & a threat to take my business to Iberia, they magically produced the seats we had originally booked.

 

 

 

No this is not a guarantee and does not make up part of the contract.

 

There is a difference from informing you which aircraft type you "should" have and allowing to to select a specific seat (often for a cost) and what is actually in the contract.

The airline reserves the right to change any of these details at anytime (operational reasons), and they have no obligation in regards to them and this is clearly stated in the T&C.  And if they are not provided, then tough luck!

 

An airline which operates fewer types of aircraft with fewer configurations will however means a lessor chance of a significant change in these regards.  

 

There are many stories of people paying for a specific seat and the aircraft changing and them being assigned another seat, and all they get back is the cost of the seat and barely an apology!  I think in your case you were lucky and they could rearrange things, but legally if you demanded a refund or re-booking then they could have said no and you would have been stuck!  But of course it is not in there interest to piss off all of there passengers, so they try to accommodate as much as possible and according to what is reasonable.

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10 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

There is a difference from informing you which aircraft type you "should" have and allowing to to select a specific seat (often for a cost) and what is actually in the contract.

The airline reserves the right to change any of these details at anytime (operational reasons), and they have no obligation in regards to them and this is clearly stated in the T&C.  And if they are not provided, then tough luck!

 

 

SAS

We shall make reasonable efforts to meet your seat allocation request for a preferred seat but cannot guarantee the allocation of a given seat, even if the reservation is confirmed for said preferred seat. We reserve the right to assign or reassign a preferred seat at any time, even after boarding of the aircraft, for operational, planning, safety or security reasons. The final decision resides with the check-in staff and the operating crew on the day of the flight.  In the event that we have to change your seat we will endeavor to seat you in a suitable alternative seat. We will look to seat your party together in the first instance, and then if possible in your choice of window seat, centre seat or aisle seat. If you have paid for an extra leg space seat we will look to seat you in another extra leg space seat. If you are not completely satisfied with your replacement seat you are eligible to apply for a refund.

 

KLM -

3. Refunds

3.1 In the event of an extra comfortable seat not being provided to you, you are entitled to a refund, representing the amount paid for the extra comfortable seats, for that specific part of the journey, in the following cases:

  • You request a refund of your ticket and your extra comfortable seat within 24 hours after booking both.
  • Your KLM flight was cancelled.
  • The type of aircraft or seat layout for your KLM flight changed and the same extra comfortable seat type was no longer available.
  • You missed your KLM intercontinental flight following a previous flight operated by KLM or another SkyTeam partner.
  • You did not use the extra comfortable seat because you changed your flight but the same type of extra comfortable seat was not available on the new flight.
  • We used our right to assign or reassign your extra comfortable seat either before or after boarding for operational, safety or security reasons. The final decision resides with the check-in staff and the operating crew on the day of the flight.

3.2 In the event of a regular seat not being provided to you, you are entitled to a refund, representing the amount paid for the regular seat, for that specific part of the journey, in the following cases:

  • You request a refund of your ticket and your regular seat within 24 hours after booking both.
  • Your KLM flight was cancelled.
  • The type of aircraft or seat layout for your KLM flight changed.
  • You missed your KLM intercontinental flight following a previous flight operated by KLM or another SkyTeam partner.
  • You have been moved to a seat with a different seat number in the same aircraft type.
  • You have been moved to a seat with the same seat number in different aircraft type (with different characteristics, e.g. window seat is now middle seat, or if you are not seated next to your travel partner anymore).
  • If you reserved a seat on a KLM marketed/operated flight but changed to a non-KLM marketed/operated flight.

3.3 You can request a refund by filling in a refund form.

3.4 In some occasions KLM will initiate a refund in case an extra comfortable seat or a regular seat was not honoured.

3.5 No refund will be made if you do not meet the above-mentioned criteria.

3.6 The paid option for extra service will be valid for one year and can only be used for the same option and the same person on the paid seat.

American Airlines

 

IN THE EVENT, AFTER TICKET ISSUANCE, SCHEDULE CHANGES ARE MADE BY AA THAT… RESULT IN A SUBSTITUTION OF EQUIPMENT NOT ACCEPTABLE TO THE PASSENGER… THE PASSENGER WILL HAVE THE OPTION OF CANCELLING WITHOUT PENALTY, OR REROUTING ON DIFFERENT FLIGHTS TO/FROM THE SAME OR DIFFERENT DESTINATION. HOWEVER, THE PASSENGER MUST PAY ANY ADDITIONAL AMOUNTS RESULTING FROM THE REROUTING.

 

As you say, they will try and not piss off passengers, especially in business. In the SAS case, they had three crashes with the Q400, some  members of my family were on this flight :

 

Scandinavian Airlines Flight 1209, a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 with the registration LN-RDK, took off from Copenhagen Airport, Denmark, on September 9, 2007. It was on a domestic flight to Aalborg Airport.

Prior to landing, the right main landing gear failed to lock and the crew circled for an hour while trying to fix the problem then preparing for an emergency landing. After the aircraft touched down, the right landing gear collapsed, the right wing hit the ground, and a fire broke out. The fire went out before the aircraft came to rest and all passengers and crew were evacuated. Five people suffered minor injuries, some from chunks of the propeller entering the cabin and others from the evacuation.

 

They were uninjured. My flight was about a week before this crash :

 

On October 27, 2007, a Q400 registered LN-RDI was operating SAS Flight 2867 from Bergen, Norway to Copenhagen, Denmark with 40 passengers and 4 crew members when problems with the main landing gear were discovered. After waiting about two hours in the air to burn fuel and troubleshoot, the pilots attempted a prepared emergency landing. The pilots were forced to land the aircraft with the right main landing gear up. The right engine was shut down prior to the landing, because in the previous landings the propeller had hit the ground and shards of it ripped into the fuselage. This was not on the emergency checklist, rather it was the pilots making a safety-based decision. The aircraft stopped on the runway at 1653 local time with the right wing touching the surface. It did not catch fire and the passengers and the crew were evacuated quickly. There were no serious injuries. The aircraft in question was one of six that had been cleared to fly just a month before, following the grounding of the entire Scandinavian Airlines Q400 fleet due to similar landing gear issues. The entire fleet was grounded again following the accident

 

I was not the only one to refuse, AFAICR there were 9 of us

If a particular plane is important to you ( or avoiding one for that matter ) regular checking of your flight before you go should let you know well in advance and give you time to change planes / times & If it's a last minute change, they will bend over backwards to accomodate you. If in the case of the 737 MAX, if its found that t is a design fault, they are wide open to compensation claims. It is not surprising that the black boxes are being analysed in France and not the US

 KLM substituted Transavia for the final leg to Berlin and let me know well in advance and offered a refund if it was not acceptable.

 

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49 minutes ago, LeCheese said:

 

 

SAS

We shall make reasonable efforts to meet your seat allocation request for a preferred seat but cannot guarantee the allocation of a given seat, even if the reservation is confirmed for said preferred seat. We reserve the right to assign or reassign a preferred seat at any time, even after boarding of the aircraft, for operational, planning, safety or security reasons. The final decision resides with the check-in staff and the operating crew on the day of the flight.  In the event that we have to change your seat we will endeavor to seat you in a suitable alternative seat. We will look to seat your party together in the first instance, and then if possible in your choice of window seat, centre seat or aisle seat. If you have paid for an extra leg space seat we will look to seat you in another extra leg space seat. If you are not completely satisfied with your replacement seat you are eligible to apply for a refund.

....

 

Yes you are eligible for a refund of the cost of the seat reservation.

 

But if you refuse to fly, demand to be re-booked, or "no-show" then you will not get a refund for the cost of the ticket and may have to pay additional costs for re-booking/re-routing which when doing last minute are often significant.  Especially if you are on a cheap ticket.  (As stated by AA above).

 

Like I said, airlines will try to accommodate you if you have concerns about the type of aircraft after an incident.  Like the Q400, 737 MAX etc.  But ordinarily they don't have to do that and it is luck if they can/do accommodate you and you might also have to adjust.  e.g.  Yes you can fly a different route on different aircraft, but there are no seats available today!

 

 

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So the bottom is lines is - unless you have a special ticket or the airline is going to be nice to you 

 

that you will loose your money, if you refuse to get on an airplane, just after a crash on a similar airplane - must say not sure what I would do util it actually happens to me

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“It’s simply implausible that this MCAS deficiency by itself can down a modern jetliner with a trained crew,” Guzzetti said.

 

yeah, well, they weren't trained on the new MCAS!  

 

It's awfully cheeky to apply what you know in hindsight to the pilots of these doomed flights.  Just awful.  This was illustrated nicely in the movie "sully" wherein they tried to use pilots in simulators to "prove" they could have made it to a nearby airport to land instead of scuttling the flight/losing the plane.  The sinulations already knew key details and were not realistic wrt time allowed to make the "correct" moves, and did not take the element of surprise into consideration at all.  

 

these two flights went down so quickly...I think it's remarkable that guest pilot was able to suss it out quickly enough.  The fact that this key detail was left out of the report is just beyond disturbing.

 

 

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BTW:  This is not the first time that the 737 has had a major design problem which result in multiple accidents and several close calls!

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

 

Quote

On March 3, 1991, United Airlines Flight 585, a Boeing 737-200, crashed while attempting to land in Colorado Springs, Colorado. During the airplane's landing approach, the plane rolled to the right and pitched nose down into a vertical dive.[2]:ix The resulting crash destroyed the aircraft and killed all 25 people on board.

 

 

Quote

On September 8, 1994, USAir Flight 427, a Boeing 737-300, crashed near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. While on approach to Pittsburgh International Airport, Flight 427 suddenly rolled to the left. Although the pilots were briefly able to roll right and level the plane, it rolled left a second time and the pilots were unable to recover.[3]:4 The resulting crash killed all 132 people on board

 

 

Quote

On June 9, 1996, while the NTSB's investigation of Flight 427 was still ongoing, the pilots of Eastwind Airlines Flight 517 briefly lost control of their aircraft while flying from Trenton, New Jersey to Richmond, Virginia.[2]:ix The aircraft experienced two episodes of rudder reversal while on approach to land in Richmond. Unlike the two prior incidents, the rudder issues on Flight 517 spontaneously resolved and the pilots were able to safely land the aircraft, and none of the 53 people on board were injured

 

 

 

Quote

 

Other suspected 737 rudder PCU malfunctions[edit]

The following Boeing 737 aircraft incidents were also suspected of being caused by a rudder PCU malfunction:

  • On June 6, 1992, Copa Airlines Flight 201, a 737-200 Advanced, flipped and crashed into the Darién Gap jungle, killing 47 people. Investigators initially believed that the airplane experienced a rudder malfunction, but after an exhaustive and extensive inquiry, they concluded that the crash was caused by faulty attitude indicator instrument readings.
  • On November 24th, 1992, China Southern Airlines Flight 3943, a 737-300, crashed on descent to Guilin Qifengling Airport, killing all 141 aboard. CAAC blame the pilots for improper response to an autothrottle malfunction. But many suspect that this is another victim of the rudder issue as the circumstances of the crash is very similar to the three textbook cases and SilkAir flight 185.
  • On March 8, 1994, a Sahara Airlines aircraft that had 3 trainees and one supervising pilot on board crashed after performing a "Touch-and-go landing" at New Delhi Airport, and slammed into a Russian jet. The four pilots were killed, as were five ground workers. Although the repairs done to the PCU were not with authorized parts, the incident is still thought to be in part due to the plane's rudder reversing both right and left.[9][10]
  • On April 11, 1994, Continental Airlines pilot Ray Miller reported his aircraft rolled violently to the right and continued to pull to the right for another 18 minutes; the Boeing 737-300 landed safely. Continental removed the flight data recorder and rudder PCU from the incident aircraft and provided them to Boeing for investigation. Boeing concluded that the rudder had inadvertently moved due to an electrical malfunction, but only 2.5 degrees and for less than two minutes in total, a finding disputed by Miller.[9]
  • On February 23, 1999, MetroJet Flight 2710, a 737-200, experienced a slow deflection of the rudder to its blowdown limit while flying at 33,000 feet above Salisbury, Maryland. While a rudder malfunction was suspected, the aircraft was an older 737 and its flight data recorder only recorded 11 flight parameters, compared to the hundreds of parameters recorded by newer aircraft. NTSB chairman Jim Hall said that the investigation was "hampered by the lack of basic aircraft data."[11][12]

 

 

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4 minutes ago, French bean said:

First major cancellation of aircraft order to Boeing, the lost revenue will certainly help focus minds but as the have such a large order book, it won't impact them too much.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47662967

 

 

Yes indeed.  This is less than 1% of the total orders (to date)

 

But, when an Indonesian airline cancels due to "safety" then you should take notice.  As Indonesia has one of the worst air safety records in to world!

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If these flying coffins are to be certified again the best thing to do would be to put the entire Boeing board of directors in a 737 Max 8 - with Trump along for good measure - and take it for a few take-offs and landings. 

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I think it's a fair statement to say that at this point Boeing needs to do a full recall of ALL their MAX model aircraft and grant full refunds to the airliners that purchased them. And they can consider their stock market value toast.

 

This is completely insane:

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/26/us/boeing-737-max-emergency-landing/index.html

 

If anything, they should give passengers the option of finding out what aircraft they will be riding on prior to purchasing a ticket--because I sure as hell won't be boarding a 737 MAX anything.

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