All Boeing 737 MAX Aircraft Grounded

240 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, lisa13 said:

on a serious note, just the reduction in horn use would be an almost incomprehensible improvement in some places.  Like, imagine NYC without the constant din of all those horns.  It will be a completely different experience (for the better, IMO)

 

If the cars are all networked, it should flow more smoothly.  A number of cars will go alternative routes.  If there's an accident, there's no slowing down due to rubber necking.  I drive far sometimes to get to my projects and I'm looking forward to it that some day, I might be able to message my car to come pick me up at the door, tell it where to go and take a nap while it gets me there.  Although I'll probably be retired before it gets that far.  It's still a nice thought.

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yes I can see the beauty in it!  no doubt

 

then again I have never, ever "enjoyed" using cruise control (I just don't use it, ever - it's creepy), find ESP and ABS totally messes up my driving in snow (cause I actually know how to drive in snow?) etc.

 

for my taste, I think it will have to be an all or none thing until I embrace it first hand :)

 

 

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21 hours ago, jeremytwo said:

 

Oh well spotted. You could even be an Anon on Qanon.

 

Seattle was/is significant for Microsoft. I loved Seattle when i went there in 1995. I was a huge fan on Northern Exposure back in the 90s. I grew this goatee back then in order to get laid with a lady there. God it looked awful. Things you when you want it eh? i even went to have my hair cut in Nordstrom for 25 stupid dollars. 

Another classic. You're wrong but try and dig or BS your way out of it. Then I understood you have a goatee. All clear now.

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2 hours ago, LeonG said:

I might be able to message my car to come pick me up at the door,

 

That is available now.

 

1 hour ago, lisa13 said:

then again I have never, ever "enjoyed" using cruise control (I just don't use it, ever - it's creepy),

 

I learned to drive with cruise control when I was 15 in my dad's Ford LTD. I use it all the time when possible. 

 

I did notice when I rented a car over the Xmas holidays in the U.S. that the automatic braking was problematic when using cruise control. It would slow my car down when I was coming up behind another car or truck about 200 meters behind said vehicle. The result was that the traffic in the left lane was going much faster than me so I couldn't just give a signal and move over. It wasn't only a result of using cruise control but also with the automatic braking.

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1 hour ago, fraufruit said:

That is available now.

 

I learned to drive with cruise control when I was 15 in my dad's Ford LTD. I use it all the time when possible. 

 

I did notice when I rented a car over the Xmas holidays in the U.S. that the automatic braking was problematic when using cruise control. It would slow my car down when I was coming up behind another car or truck about 200 meters behind said vehicle. The result was that the traffic in the left lane was going much faster than me so I couldn't just give a signal and move over. It wasn't only a result of using cruise control but also with the automatic braking.

 

I have had a car with cruise control at some point in the past but when I wasn't driving a lot and didn't really need it.  Now that I do drive a lot, I miss it on my current car.  Never had a car with automated braking / distance control but I did hear from someone that has it that like you say, it leaves too much of a gap between you and the car in front and he said everybody just pulls in there and his car brakes even further to try to get back to the same distance.

 

I didn't know you can already get cars that pick you up at the door.  I know I could get a lot of technology right now but I'm not ready to pay for it so far.  Although I think my next car will definitely have cruise control.

 

 

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11 hours ago, LeonG said:

I didn't know you can already get cars that pick you up at the door.

 

A friend told me he was with a guy with a Tesla. As they exited the restaurant, there were a couple of pretty girls there and he wanted to impress them. The Tesla came around and picked them up. It was at that point that he realized the windows were so dark that nobody could tell that there wasn't a driver. I told him that was even more impressive, having a personal driver.

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Looks like the jackscrew was set to dive. Interesting video of one in this report.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6813845/Ethiopia-Boeing-plane-set-dive-screw-like-device-wreckage-shows.html

 

Autopilot has to be off for MCAS  to kick in. Supposed to prevent exactly what it caused...:wacko: It says in the above report the MCAS can be overridden by the pilot with manual trim...

 

All of it is speculation of the report of course...

 

Will be interesting what the black boxes have to say.

 

 

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14 hours ago, fraufruit said:

I learned to drive with cruise control when I was 15 in my dad's Ford LTD. I use it all the time when possible. 

 

I also use cruise control just about all the time.  It enables me monitor other things involved with driving (eg good lookout) instead of having to concentrate on keeping to a speed limit.

The cruise control that I had on the VW diesels (Passat, Golf Plus, Touran) as company cars was very good.  The one on my Toyota Verso isn't so responsive but it does its job.

 

But haven't we gone off the subject?

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48 minutes ago, HEM said:

 

I also use cruise control just about all the time.  It enables me monitor other things involved with driving (eg good lookout) instead of having to concentrate on keeping to a speed limit.

The cruise control that I had on the VW diesels (Passat, Golf Plus, Tiuran) as company cars was very good.  The one on my Toyota Verso isn't so responsive but it does its job.

 

I never use cruise control. Manual all the way for me. I prefer to be in control :)

Each to their own though. Is good to have the possibility!

 

My post tried to bring it back on subject above ;)

 

with the latest news report.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6813845/Ethiopia-Boeing-plane-set-dive-screw-like-device-wreckage-shows.html

 

Looks like they have taken the black boxes to France to be evaluated.

 

 

 

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OK, this is the way I understand so far...

 

1.) Boeing brought out a new version of its 737 that uses less fuel due to new engines.

 

2.) This new and bigger engine had to be attached at a place that massively alters the handling of the new 737 compared to older 737s.

 

3.) This would have required a new training for all pilots, even though they are certified to fly the old 737.

 

4.) Boeing solved that by having a software that "augments" the handling of the new plane to be closer to the handling of the older ones, and as such declared that no new training is required.

 

5.) This system seems to rely on just one sensor, and it isn't even mentioned in the manuals.

 

So, if I get it right, this system has no redundancy and even if the pilots knew how to switch this of  in case of a failure, they're left with a plane of which they never experienced the raw handling in a simulator...

 

I smell a shit load of trouble coming in for Boeing...

 

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2 hours ago, franklan said:

OK, this is the way I understand so far...

 

1.) Boeing brought out a new version of its 737 that uses less fuel due to new engines.

 

2.) This new and bigger engine had to be attached at a place that massively alters the handling of the new 737 compared to older 737s.

 

3.) This would have required a new training for all pilots, even though they are certified to fly the old 737.

 

4.) Boeing solved that by having a software that "augments" the handling of the new plane to be closer to the handling of the older ones, and as such declared that no new training is required.

 

5.) This system seems to rely on just one sensor, and it isn't even mentioned in the manuals.

 

So, if I get it right, this system has no redundancy and even if the pilots knew how to switch this of  in case of a failure, they're left with a plane of which they never experienced the raw handling in a simulator...

 

I smell a shit load of trouble coming in for Boeing...

 

Well put... But one smelling pisstake... :lol:

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Put like that FrankIan, I would say that Boeing knew the handling characteristics would be altered significantly and so rather than the complete redesign of the wing or the flying controls, they went for the cheaper option of developing some software.

 

My thinking is they went down the route of selling another type of 737 because

a) it costs less to modify an existing design than to develop a new aircraft

B) they would find that easier than if they needed to sell a brand new aircraft with probably a new designation such as 797 or so.

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The Seattle Times seems to have quite some connections to Boeing people, very interesting read:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/

 

Very interesting things about the FAA, too. This brings new light on the Ethiopian decision to send the black box to French authorities and not to the FAA as usual...

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good lord what a horribly designed system

 

who the hell came up with that?  how could that pass certification?  what self respecting engineer and/or dev would look at that "design" and not see the gaping holes?

 

just, wtf?

 

eta:  I kinda smell management decisions to "just get it done" here.  JMO

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Looks like a "diesel gate" magnitude of scandal for Boeing. I´m sure they can do a software and hardware fix, but passengers might refuse to board those planes, so airlines might want to ditch them and ask Boeing for compensation.

Worst case, they would have to compensate all airlines to the point they could go bankrupt.

At this moment it is not so critical because of the +5000 orders, less than 10% were delivered.

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16 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Looks like a "diesel gate" magnitude of scandal for Boeing.

It's worse. In "Diesel Gate", nobody can sue the car manufacturers for the loss of a family member.

 

In Boeing's situation, there are >300 who can.

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Actually, I don't think that this will be a big problem for Boeing.

 

It is not the first time that an airliner has crashed due to a fault/failure of a manufacturer and it won't be the last, it is just that because the two crashes have occurred so close together and are being linked to software which makes it unusual.  But as software will do more and more then it could become a more common occurrence.

 

Example of Airbus software bug causing a crash:

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32810273

 

 

And I think that as time goes by, that changes will be made to the software and maybe also to the senor(s), tested, proven OK, and everybody will forget about it and move one.

 

I bet most people don't know in advance what type of aircraft they are going to board on there next trip, or could even tell the difference in most cases.  So they are unlikely to avoid a flight that uses a certain type of aircraft once the hype has died down.

 

Likely outcome is that Boeing and the FAA have to implement changes, Boeing will have one off costs associated with this and making the changes to already produced aircraft, and costs related to delays to new aircraft (which often include compensation to airlines!), and then in a couple of years everything will be fine again.

 

 

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44 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

I bet most people don't know in advance what type of aircraft they are going to board on there next trip, or could even tell the difference in most cases.  So they are unlikely to avoid a flight that uses a certain type of aircraft once the hype has died down.

 

Before they grounded the 737's in the U.S. , many were refusing to fly on them. One guy walked off of one when he saw the model on the safety card in his seat. I, myself, will not fly on one just because of the stupid design and placement of the engines. One can find out the model before flying.

 

ETA - you can find the plane models on seatguru.com.

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42 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Before they grounded the 737's in the U.S. , many were refusing to fly on them. One guy walked off of one when he saw the model on the safety card in his seat. I, myself, will not fly on one just because of the stupid design and placement of the engines. One can find out the model before flying.

 

ETA - you can find the plane models on seatguru.com.

Agree, even if 5% of the passengers would refuse to fly, this would be a nightmare for companies, so they can´t dismiss this.

Even 2 weeks ago, I was on a flight where one of the 400+ passengers refused to seat because of a window place. The whole thing delayed the flight take off for 40 minutes.

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What actual happens, if you refuse to fly on a certain type of aeroplane ?

 

Do you just lose your money ?, because if you refuse to fly, you are just a no show to them - which you would lose the money

 

If you wanted to re-book on another flight, there's is normally a re-booking fee - do you get charged that ?

 

Just interested

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