taxation of own-generated solar electricity

[Gambatte 900]

 

11 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

... the there is no longer any tax implications on your "feed in "... tarrif

Now that you stimulated our curiosity I just googled it but couldn't find confirmation.

Find out and tell us!

[scook17 248]

Seems when I am forced to have a 'smart' meter installed in a few years from now, as a 'system operator', i.e. someone who owns a solar system with less than 7KWh, I will need to pay 100 Euros a year for the meter. See Page 2.

 

https://www.bayernwerk-netz.de/content/dam/revu-global/bayernwerk-netz/files/energieservice/messstellenbetrieb/2021-01-12-preisblatt-bayernwerk-mme-imsys-2021.pdf

 

I sometime seriously wonder if I'd have been better off never connecting the system to the grid in the first place. I see why those people who have now come to the end of the 20 year EEG subsidy are deciding to take the system off grid.

[Gambatte 900]

 

8 minutes ago, scook17 said:

Seems when I am forced to have a 'smart' meter installed in a few years from now, as a 'system operator'

What is this?

 

[scook17 248]

12 minutes ago, Gambatte said:

 

What is this?

 

I am presuming '2.2. Preise für Anlagenbetreiber' is system operator, assuming I correctly read the German. I escape by having a <7Kw system at the moment, but I am told (by the Bayerwerk help line) that eventually they roll these out to everyone in due course. I couldn't figure out of 2.3 also applied, another 60 Euros per year.

 

FAQ is here:

https://www.bayernwerk.de/de/fuer-zuhause/strom-und-gasanschluss/intelligente-zaehler/fragen-und-antworten.html

 

[scook17 248]

How complicated can one make a taxation system for the average person?

https://www.finanztip.de/photovoltaik/pv-steuer/

 

Had a discussion with the tax advisor last night. One thing I did not realize is that by allowing the solar system to feed into the grid, and getting paid for this, generates quite a liability. I am a sales tax registered freelancer, so I have no choice regarding sales tax.

 

The solar energy consumed by me is subject to an imagined 'income' tax, which is calculated by the value of the feed in tariff (10c/kwh) x the KWhs consumed.

Additionally there is VAT/MWST to pay based on the retail price of the electricity (30c/kwh) x the KWhs consumed.

 

The electricity 'sold' to the electricity company at around a third of the price they sell it to me at, has to have income tax paid on this.

If I assume 40% income tax, which is about right for most people, due to progression, then I get 6c/kw net for selling it, but pay 30c/kw from the grid.

 

Because I chose to supply the grid with spare electricity, and get paid for this, I also have to account for income tax and sales tax on the self consumed electricity.

This generates a considerable set of additional work for my tax accountant, and for the average person, the need to actually employ a tax accountant.

 

I commissioned the system in 2017. Now I seriously consider disconnecting it from the feed in system. The tax burden is never worth the income a typical solar roof system generates. Creating a system which does not feed in, or is isolated, feeding a battery for example, seems to exempt you from these requirements, as far as I can tell, but of this I am far from certain.

 

I am sad that this happens, that as we apparently will move to a net zero carbon economy, it becomes so complicated for an average person to participate.

[HEM 11,079]

1 minute ago, scook17 said:

How complicated can one make a taxation system for the average person?

 

Why is the vast majority of literature on taxation in German?  & why are there so many Steuerberater who are needed to untangle the mess for us plebs?

 

Some years ago Frederic Merz proposed a simplified scheme "tax return on a beer mat" which got derided by those with an interest in keeping things complicated.

 

Quote

This generates a considerable set of additional work for my tax accountant, and for the average person, the need to actually employ a tax accountant.

 

For which you have to pay for his/her services.

[Gambatte 900]

5 hours ago, scook17 said:

Because I chose to supply the grid with spare electricity, and get paid for this, I also have to account for income tax and sales tax on the self consumed electricity.

This generates a considerable set of additional work for my tax accountant, and for the average person, the need to actually employ a tax accountant.

Guys, I'm surprised you are not yet aware of the change.

Starting from early 2021 there is no longer income tax to pay on any electricity you sell from your domestic PV-Anlage (not on the one you sell to the grid, and also not on the one you "sell to yourself"). I think the reasoning for the change was indeed what you are complaining about, too much hassle doing the tax return, coupled with the fact that the payable tax was always very miniscule (mainly because one could offset the initial cost of purchasing the modules etc). 

 

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/390452-domestic-photovoltaik-anlage-now-free-from-income-tax/#comment-3897427

[scook17 248]

On 30/09/2021, 16:30:50, Gambatte said:

Guys, I'm surprised you are not yet aware of the change.

Starting from early 2021 there is no longer income tax to pay on any electricity you sell from your domestic PV-Anlage (not on the one you sell to the grid, and also not on the one you "sell to yourself"). I think the reasoning for the change was indeed what you are complaining about, too much hassle doing the tax return, coupled with the fact that the payable tax was always very miniscule (mainly because one could offset the initial cost of purchasing the modules etc). 

 

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/390452-domestic-photovoltaik-anlage-now-free-from-income-tax/#comment-3897427

 

Gambatte,

Yes I am aware of this change, and I see at least the financial office will as of today simply reject a 'business' claim for a <10KwH system.

However, if you are already in this boat, you need to wait a total of six years or repay the VAT claimed on the original system.

Being a freelancer I am VAT registered anyway, so even in N years when I can opt for this, I believe (correct me if I am wrong) I still have to account for VAT.

I am, however, glad they simplified it somewhat, as what tax would the actually collect in the end on a system of <10KWh? Answer almost zero, as it would mostly be a loss each year after depreciation and accountancy costs.

[wien4ever 446]

On 2/10/2021, 1:21:37, scook17 said:

 

 

Compared to some countries, Germany's approach does not encourage take up.

 

Exactly! I am clapping so hard my hands hurt. I would love to go solar, even start with the balkony and work up to garage roof and full roof. But the costs and hoops are just infuriating. Germany's approach to netzero energy is completely schizophrenic. How can the average joe join in preventing climate change ? 

 

It's all a game of pretend at the end of the day.

 

[Gambatte 900]

8 hours ago, wien4ever said:

How can the average joe join in preventing climate change ? 

Reducing consumption.

[MikeMelga 7,255]

Been looking to buy one of those simple systems below 600W, so installation is super simple, in theory I don't need a technician. Of course there is the 600W limit, but I wonder how this works in a 3 phase system. If half my devices are hanging on other phases, is the meter done in a way that counts supplied power differently? Otherwise it's just a waste of money.

[Gambatte 900]

Sorry Mike not answering your question. But...

What for do you want such a small system? Fun? Boat? Campervan?

600Wp is two panels.

Typical household systems are 3kWp-10kWp, so 10-30 panels.

[wien4ever 446]

Would it be possible to get more panels , eg. 1200W and restrict the inverter to supplying max 600w in the summer? that way you don't break any rules? I'm just thinking about maximizing electricity generation during the winter months.

[Gambatte 900]

Even 1200Wp in winter will produce very little.

I will post data of mine later today.

[scook17 248]

6 hours ago, Gambatte said:

Even 1200Wp in winter will produce very little.

I will post data of mine later today.

 

Attached is a typical distribution. 5.8KW system, west facing. In December I got around 123 KWh generated. A fraction of the 928 in June.

 

If you look at winter, the results are sparse on many days. South facing would help, as would a much sharper angle which is both better for generation in winter and means the snow falls off more easily.

 

 

Considered adding a south facing set of panels, just for winter. Most days it's 150-300w of power whilst the sun is up, so in the order of 3-5KWh per day. June time it's averaging around 30KWh per day, so massive drop in winter time.

 

 

[MikeMelga 7,255]

On 2/15/2022, 6:07:46, Gambatte said:

Sorry Mike not answering your question. But...

What for do you want such a small system? Fun? Boat? Campervan?

600Wp is two panels.

Typical household systems are 3kWp-10kWp, so 10-30 panels.

It's a compromised solution. I don't own the house, so I won't make big investments. This solution allows me to take them with me.

I also don't want to pay too much for changing main board, etc. It's a simple solution.

Also 600Wp is not far from my home office consumption. Basically it's better than nothing.

[MikeMelga 7,255]

12 hours ago, wien4ever said:

Would it be possible to get more panels , eg. 1200W and restrict the inverter to supplying max 600w in the summer? that way you don't break any rules? I'm just thinking about maximizing electricity generation during the winter months.

Yes! Just limit the inverter to 600W and you increase the chance of reaching 600W.

[MikeMelga 7,255]

9 minutes ago, scook17 said:

 

Attached is a typical distribution. 5.8KW system, west facing. In December I got around 123 KWh generated. A fraction of the 928 in June.

 

If you look at winter, the results are sparse on many days. South facing would help, as would a much sharper angle which is both better for generation in winter and means the snow falls off more easily.

 

 

Considered adding a south facing set of panels, just for winter. Most days it's 150-300w of power whilst the sun is up, so in the order of 4-5KWh per day. June time it's averaging around 30KWh per day, so massive drop in winter time.

I have a south facing house and can adjust angle, so I expect good daily results. Again, my idea is this is better than nothing. If I owned the place I would invest in a big system with battery.

[HH_Sailor 3,541]

We're thinking of adding PV next year and looking at the pro's and con's.

Have you guys changed your elec consumption habits, now that you're

generating daylight power ?

 

eg only baking / washing / dishwashing / ironing during the day?

 

Installing a large battery system, to allow some of the daytime power to be used in the evenings?

The EV won't be at home during the day, so it will drain the "solar battery" as soon as it comes home

for it's top up.

 

Excess solar power will also be stored as heat in a 2000 L water tank (immersion heater)

[scook17 248]

1 hour ago, HH_Sailor said:

Have you guys changed your elec consumption habits, now that you're generating daylight power ?

eg only baking / washing / dishwashing / ironing during the day?

 

Installing a large battery system, to allow some of the daytime power to be used in the evenings?

The EV won't be at home during the day, so it will drain the "solar battery" as soon as it comes home

for it's top up.

 

Excess solar power will also be stored as heat in a 2000 L water tank (immersion heater)

Yes, I bought a number of smart sockets which I use to turn off stuff at night automatically. Equally you can do this by hand, but it's to kill the electricity vampires. Also allows me to track consumption. So for example the old freezer I had turned out to be running a lot, so replaced it with an upright one, A*******+++++ version.

 

Heating the 400L hot water turned out to be a pain. The 500w heat pump uses too little power to do this during sun hours only, so has to run considerably outside the scope of just the sun. In winter it consumes all the solar electrical energy and plus 50% more. Depending on the COP, which is highly dependant on the outside temperature, the heat pump can be as little as 1.5x to as much as 3x the electrical cost to heat generation. So 500w electrical power is 750w to 1.5Kw heating element power.

 

Considered a 'MyEnergy' Eddi which redirects 'spare' energy to a regular thermal heating element. Also works with the Zappi to charge an EV on just spare solar power. Otherwise you just get a fixed load on the hot water heating, where the solar can go from 100w to 6000w depending on the season and if it's cloudy. So when it's generating 1500w, still the heat pump consumes just 500w. When it goes down to 100w, still the heat pump consumes 500w, drawing an additional 400w from the grid.

 

Solar sucks in winter, with days without any effective power. During the poor solar months (Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb), I switch the water heating over to gas. Gas cost last year 3,5c/KWh, where as electricity was 30c. It was cheaper, if that's the sole consideration, to sell our solar energy to the grid and let someone else use it. Gas price doubled January 1st 2022, and likely will double again in six months from now. Then it really is much cheaper to use electricity yourself. 

 

Given the choice again, I would have split the panels to the west, east and south side, and angled them to the ideal winter position. Less overall energy, but more energy during the dull winter months as you anyway get way to much energy to use in the summer.

 

Hope to actually get an EV sometime. They don't need charging that much, so likely for me, charging just over the weekend and days the car is actually at home will be fine. I did, however, see some new EV charging points appear in various car parks recently.