Verdi - terrorist union

212 posts in this topic

34 minutes ago, hooperski said:

Has Jeba got any idea of the devastation that Thatcher caused when she closed the coal mines.

Fucked up communities for decades, still being felt here in Wales.

But it doesn't matter because they're not part of the hierarchy.

29 minutes ago, jeba said:

Nonsense. I´m just pointing out the fact that there is a pay hierarchy. And it should be like that. Raising pay at the lower lever will inevitably trickle up the ladder.

Bonuses and pay rise up top don't seem to trickle down though do they.

30 minutes ago, jeba said:

No. Everybody deserves to have enough to make a living. If wages aren´t enough they need to be topped up. As they are in Germany. You can´t have jobs the cost of which is higher than what customers are prepared to pay for the service / product. Otherwise you could still employ heaters on diesel locomotives.

So the employers shouldn't pay a living wage but taxpayers should pay it so that companies can continue to make profits ?

31 minutes ago, jeba said:

All your fuck sakes don´t offer a solution (to that most people can´t afford private care in line with current German law and that strikes like Verdi´s will hurt vulnerable people).

A higher tax rate for high earners and making sure everybody pays their tax would be a start.

You think only of the people with money when you have ideas and hhow to increase their money and seemingly don't give a fuck about the people without money.

27 minutes ago, jeba said:

Do you think Germania and Airberlin went bankrupt because their profit margins were too high?

Did they go bankrupt because they paid their employees too much ?

I bet you're one of those people who thinks that as soon as a companys profit margin drops they need to start cutting jobs.

35 minutes ago, jeba said:

Do you understand what the alternative is for someone from a slum in Nepal or Burma?

 

Oh come on don't start trying to convince people you would be doing it for the good of those people rather than do it as a cost saving exercise for yourself.

Imagine how much better for them it would be if you brought them over and gave them the same pay and conditions as someone over here.

31 minutes ago, jeba said:

No, but he thinks € 20/hour for unskilled work is way too much. That´s equivalent to more than € 3500/month (22 working days * 8 hours *20 = 3520). Which is more than the starting salary of academic professions in public service

How many people actually work for companies that run at a constant loss ?

Why would cutting a companies profits actually be a bad thing if it meant improving peoples lives ?

 

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36 minutes ago, jeba said:

Nonsense. I´m just pointing out the fact that there is a pay hierarchy. And it should be like that. Raising pay at the lower lever will inevitably trickle up the ladder.

 

That must be a terrible idea for you that other underpaid workers could earn more ... 

 

36 minutes ago, jeba said:

 

No. Everybody deserves to have enough to make a living. If wages aren´t enough they need to be topped up. As they are in Germany.

 

From the state - the main thing for you is that the surpluses and dividends of the companies are right, right? 

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People are often envious of others..how dare they earn more than me? Instead of thinking: hm, if I want to improve my income, what can I do?

That is how it is.

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1 hour ago, hooperski said:

Has Jeba got any idea of the devastation that Thatcher caused when she closed the coal mines.

Fucked up communities for decades, still being felt here in Wales.

Only those who lived outside London and the south east would know what Thatcherism was really about. The decimation of communities, the removal of social support for those who needed it, the increase in indirect costs such as insurance because she cut council spending so much drains weren't cleared (flooding), vandalism increased (youth centres closed) and cost of housing  became unsustainable (removal of housing stock through right to buy and the prevention of local authorities from building more). Ironic that since the financial crisis of 2008 just about everything she did has fallen apart. Evil, selfish, greedy woman.

 

Oh I almost forgot, the poll tax where the wealthy pay less and the poor pay more.

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53 minutes ago, john g. said:

People are often envious of others..how dare they earn more than me? Instead of thinking: hm, if I want to improve my income, what can I do?

That is how it is.

John, you are 100% correct, but times companies do things that truly is wrong and unfair.

In 2006, I was working on (but gave up - a long story) my MBA.  I wrote a paper on Carly Fiorina.  From 1999-2005, she was the CEO of HP.  She was given a grotesque amount of money and perks as a signing bonus (3Mil USD), plus 65Mil USD in stocks, plus other perks.  Over her six years span at the helm, she bought Compaq.  Her tenure as the CEO caused a 50% stock decrease, she layed-off 30000 employees, the company was increasing it's debt and their cash flow was decreasing yearly.  She was voted as one of he worst US CEOs ever.

When she left, HP gave her a 42Mil USD severance package!

A bit unfair I believe and definitely worthy of people being angry over unfair treatment.

 

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On 7.2.2019, 08:22:46, jeba said:

Verdi is taking innocent travelers hostage again. I´m fed up with them. Not only are their demands unreasonable (like pay hikes of 30%) but they are disrupting the lives of lots of people who have no say in the matter anyway. There should be laws against strikes in which groups with control over essential functions can inflict pain on so many people. At the very least they should have to announce strike action well in advance so that people can make alternative arrangements.

 

Do you want to return to the "good old days" when the employee was treated like a slave? No rights and even having to ask his employers permission to marry who sometimes only allowed this if he could spend the first night with the bride to be. No sickness pay,holidays, or  pensions. The employers are 99%organised in their employers asociations, and could lock out  or sack their employees but they should , according to your contribution not be allowed to strike?

 

 

    When I read some of the replies here I remember reading " Sometimes when a slave becomes golden chains he believes he has been promoted to be a company director"!

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1 hour ago, ballygobackwards said:

 

Do you want to return to the "good old days" when the employee was treated like a slave? No rights and even having to ask his employers permission to marry who sometimes only allowed this if he could spend the first night with the bride to be. No sickness pay,holidays, or  pensions. The employers are 99%organised in their employers asociations, and could lock out  or sack their employees but they should , according to your contribution not be allowed to strike?

Sounds like the good ol’ US of A

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8 hours ago, Keleth said:

But it doesn't matter because they're not part of the hierarchy.

What are you trying to say?

 

8 hours ago, Keleth said:

Bonuses and pay rise up top don't seem to trickle down though do they. ...

...So the employers shouldn't pay a living wage but taxpayers should pay it so that companies can continue to make profits ?

Employers can only pay a living wage if a job´s creation of value is higher than the cost of labour associated with that job. That´s why whole professions have vanished (e. g. shoecleaners, petrol attendents, weavers...). But that´s besides the point. The point is that most people cannot afford paying for private care at current German standards. Don´t constantly talk about companies and executive´s bonuses when my point is that private households should be allowed to "import" cheap labour (as they were before minimum wage was introduced) so that they can afford it and aren´t forced to live in old age homes. You seem to think that most pensioners could easily spend north of € 5000.- to employ a domestic worker but are too stingy. Neither you nor anybody else on here has so far suggested a better solution than the one I suggested. And my other point is that striking for a pay of more than € 3500 for unskilled workers on a comfortable job is unreasonable and taking the public hostage for it is outrageous.

 

Sorry, I don´t feel like wasting more time on countering your besides-the-point arguments.

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8 hours ago, john g. said:

People are often envious of others..how dare they earn more than me? Instead of thinking: hm, if I want to improve my income, what can I do?

That is how it is.

I don´t get your point. I´m not unhappy with my income (just with the fact that I have to invest in stocks rather than bonds nowadays as they did away with interest). I just want it´s purchasing power protected. And raising the cost of services beyond inflation and increases of productivity will erode it. What´s wrong with that thinking?

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7 hours ago, ballygobackwards said:

Do you want to return to the "good old days" when the employee was treated like a slave? No rights and even having to ask his employers permission to marry who sometimes only allowed this if he could spend the first night with the bride to be. No sickness pay,holidays, or  pensions. The employers are 99%organised in their employers asociations, and could lock out  or sack their employees but they should , according to your contribution not be allowed to strike?

I never said this. I´m merely opposed to unreasonable demands and would like to see unions exercising that moderation they have shown for the last 70 years (or let´s say until when the locomotive strikes began about 5 years ago).

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Having browsed through the thread quickly, I think I maybe get where jeba is coming from. Correct me if I am wrong but, exact details aside it's the closening of the hierarchy that's worrisome? However, these days, it's the exact opposite that's true. The increasing wage gap is becoming one of the defining issues of this century. Maybe it feels, on a local level, that paying baggage handlers more will be unsustainable, but in reality, a correction like this is long overdue.

 

On a personal level...we are a long way from communism here. You say that "unskilled" workers striking to get as much pay as a starting academic is unreasonable. I get where you are coming from, but academia is a notoriously badly paid profession anyway. But even then, the academic will go on to earn quite a lot more over a lifetime than the baggage handler. But it's not all about money. Yes, higher qualified people should earn a bit more. But I would not call baggage handling "comfortable". If you offered me the same wage to do baggage handling or my current job then I would do my job. I bet a lot of people would say the same. Higher skilled jobs are more exciting, fun, fulfilling and yes pay a bit more. But it shouldn't be astronomically more.

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Absolutely.  I was thinking social inequalty too with that example of why airport workers cannot live near the airport.   It was always an area they competed against highly paid peers like air traffic controlllers and pilots, but now, about a zillion European headquarters and logistic centres have set up, thanks to proximity to international travel.  And it trickles down into many industries, marketing types and sportspeople and the rest who move here say the proximity to the airport was a decision factor in 2019 when families are based in Sweden or Spain or wherever.  It probably even is in academia because it can connect to the business and get funding etc (and so academics too now say it is getting unaffordable often).  A very vicious circle.

 

The solution though is not divide and rule - to want the worse off to take our strain - rather to address that.

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1 hour ago, theGman said:

Correct me if I am wrong but, exact details aside it's the closening of the hierarchy that's worrisome?

You got the gist. But not fully, as what I´m worried about is not that the pay hierarchy will be closening but rather that the whole hierarchy will move upwards. There will always be a difference between the salary say of a physician and the doorman in a hospital and if the doorman gets a 30% raise so will the physician. Therefore, that´s not worrisome but rather that those who aren´t part of the pay hierarchy will lose their purchasing power. Think of people who can´t get raises like pensioners or people living off their investment proceeds. They won´t get higher income but will have to pay higher prices.

That´s one of my points. The other is that at least for most private households in Germany it is now already impossible to hire domestic workers (contrary to all other countries I´ve lived in). That could easily be changed by adopting the Cypriot approach. And it should. Because otherwise e. g. the elderly will keep on having to go to old age homes rather than being able to spend their last years at home and to keep their doggies (that was one of the most important issues for my mother). Or think of people with disabled children. A friend of my wife had a well paid job with the EU in Brussels but had to give it up once she gave birth to a severely disabled child (the father ran away back to Africa never to be heard of)  because she wouldn´t have her child put into institutional care. She ended up living on social grants because she couldn´t afford private caregiving (even though she had a decent job) and chose to do it herself. Had she been able to afford a full-time nanny she could have kept her job or work part-time.

I know it can easiyl be regarded unfair to those having to work for meager salaries. But isn´t it unfair to the eldery as well the way it currently is? And for the poor from poor countries it is at least the lesser evil compared to staying put where they are.

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1 hour ago, swimmer said:

I was thinking social inequalty too with that example of why airport workers cannot live near the airport.

Lifting the level of wages won´t help adress this problem because all others will also get a raise. So the same competition will simply take place at a different level. Apart from that I was commuting as well when I was working and so was my wife (30km and 23 km, respectively). My son-in-law´s commute is more than an hour one way. So having to commute isn´t an unreasonable expectation anyway.

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Man, why can't society just allow jeba his slave labor and stop inconveniencing his flight timetable? Damn those terrorists anyway.

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17 hours ago, jeba said:

€ 20/hour for unskilled work is way too much. That´s equivalent to more than € 3500/month (22 working days * 8 hours *20 = 3520). Which is more than the starting salary of academic professions in public service.

 

3520 EUR brutto would be 2537 EUR netto.   Try to raise a family with 2 kids on that salary.   Or better, with the 2640 EUR brutto and 2011 EUR netto they are making right now assuming 15 EUR per hour.

 

And that's based on your 40 hours contract assumption, I wouldn't be so sure they have 40 hours contracts, but I really do not know.

 

Remember the days when the middle class could afford to buy a small house? well those days are long gone because of people with your mentality.   You, the ones who want to push every low skilled worker into poverty.

 

P.S, A guy with 2 kids might as well think twice if he would work for that salary because he could come close to the same just by collecting Hartz4.  Of course your opinion would be to remove Hartz4 benefits.

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3 hours ago, jeba said:

You got the gist. But not fully, as what I´m worried about is not that the pay hierarchy will be closening but rather that the whole hierarchy will move upwards. There will always be a difference between the salary say of a physician and the doorman in a hospital and if the doorman gets a 30% raise so will the physician.

 

So there is no problem then...

 

3 hours ago, jeba said:

Therefore, that´s not worrisome but rather that those who aren´t part of the pay hierarchy will lose their purchasing power. Think of people who can´t get raises like pensioners or people living off their investment proceeds. They won´t get higher income but will have to pay higher prices.

 

Ahh, but there it is. That's quite a specific problem. I would say people living off investment proceeds should maybe have been better prepared, left a lot more wiggle room and perhaps shouldn't have retired so early.

Pensions is a societal issue and should not be solved by keeping wages low.

 

3 hours ago, jeba said:

That´s one of my points. The other is that at least for most private households in Germany it is now already impossible to hire domestic workers (contrary to all other countries I´ve lived in). That could easily be changed by adopting the Cypriot approach. And it should. Because otherwise e. g. the elderly will keep on having to go to old age homes rather than being able to spend their last years at home and to keep their doggies (that was one of the most important issues for my mother). Or think of people with disabled children. A friend of my wife had a well paid job with the EU in Brussels but had to give it up once she gave birth to a severely disabled child (the father ran away back to Africa never to be heard of)  because she wouldn´t have her child put into institutional care. She ended up living on social grants because she couldn´t afford private caregiving (even though she had a decent job) and chose to do it herself. Had she been able to afford a full-time nanny she could have kept her job or work part-time.

I know it can easiyl be regarded unfair to those having to work for meager salaries. But isn´t it unfair to the eldery as well the way it currently is? And for the poor from poor countries it is at least the lesser evil compared to staying put where they are.

 

But I still don't think slave labour is the answer. I can't particularly comment on the exact status of the situation of old age care in Germany or in Cyprus but that's just the way the world works. People try to save/invest/pension/insurance whatever they can in preparation for old age. But depending on how long you live and in what health condition you are in and whether you have kids who can help etc then each individual has to see how far they can get before ending up under state care. Slave labour isn't the answer.

 

Besides, your answer is cyclical and hypocritical. What happens to the slaves when they get old?

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16 minutes ago, theGman said:

I would say people living off investment proceeds should maybe have been better prepared, left a lot more wiggle room and perhaps shouldn't have retired so early.

 

Only those who didn't invest/make enough. The rest of us are doing just fine, thanks.

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9 minutes ago, theGman said:

Besides, your answer is cyclical and hypocritical. What happens to the slaves when they get old?

 

They don't get old, heavy physical work and stress take their toll. 

 

Professional firefighters - an underpaid group of which jeba fears they could want to earn more - have a life expectancy of only about 65 years in Germany. With more (social) stress and less money this can certainly be pushed further down ... 

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