Verdi - terrorist union

190 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, zwiebelfisch said:

 

Indeed, but ideally it should affect the employer but not the public. 

 

That is often impossible. It usually goes along the lines of strike affects customers/public etc and *they* are in a position to exert pressure on the employer (if only by taking their money elsewhere). Employers tend to listen more to people they get money from, rather than people they pay money to.

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53 minutes ago, Marianne013 said:

That is often impossible.

Maybe not. When they go on strike in Japan they continue working but wear an armlet to signal that they are actually on strike.

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2 hours ago, jeba said:

Maybe not. When they go on strike in Japan they continue working but wear an armlet to signal that they are actually on strike.

 

Right, if you want The Public to support you, the last thing you do is screw them over.  All Verdi have to do is act like they are trying to minimise the harm to the traveling public and many people will be behind them.  Act like assholes and you will have the same people backing the employer.

 

I think a lot of people are stuck in the past and think its a simple us vs them.

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There was a recent Facebook article (always question the validity) about striking bus drivers in Japan.  Whether true or not, the idea is an utterly brilliant one.

The basic premise was the drivers go on strike, but report to work, drive the bus on the proper routes, but never charge the passengers.  The company looses each day,  but has null to a positive impact on the passengers.  Again, whether true or not, grand idea!

Pilots can't do such.  Obviously.  DB could do.  It is a better idea that causing the consumer delays or irritation.  Could other fields of industry find a better means to strike than merely walking away from work.  I often wonder if unions like Verdi consider the impact their strategy has on consumers.

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On 08/02/2019, 14:46:13, jeba said:

Maybe not. When they go on strike in Japan they continue working but wear an armlet to signal that they are actually on strike.

I'm aware of this strike technique. But as noted that wouldn't work for most forms of transport, especially in Europe. So far no-one complaining here has come up with a better example of what transport unions should do, beyond "don't strike".  There are very little other handles. Even if you go and show that an employer treats their employees unfairly, people will go for the cheapest price, no matter what the reputation of the company (Amazon anyone?).

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On 2/7/2019, 10:45:19, MikeMelga said:

public service teachers earning much more than engineers, working only 28h per week, vs 40h for engineers.

But if it wasn't for teachers then there wouldn't be any engineers in the first place.

On 2/7/2019, 10:45:19, MikeMelga said:

minimum wage very close to average wage, i.e. minimum wage was raised, but the rest of the economy not. So you have cases where engineers are earning not much more than minimum wage.

Is there actually a problem with someone wanting to earn an average wage ?

On 2/7/2019, 10:45:19, MikeMelga said:

Unskilled people's paradise! Why study?

Studying does not make someone an engineer or whatever.A great percentage of people could study for years and still wouldn't understand anything.That's the human race for you.

And if everybody was highly qualified then who would clean up after engineers etc.

 

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On 2/7/2019, 8:22:46, jeba said:

There should be laws against strikes in which groups with control over essential functions can inflict pain on so many people.

Not until there are laws to stop companies exploiting its workers.

 

On 2/7/2019, 9:29:09, jeba said:

When they demand a minimum pay of € 20.-/h for lowly qualified staff

So highly qualified people were in school studying until 25 or whenever whereas lowly qualified people were in work at 16 earning money to keep themselves alive.Yer fuck those low qualified spongers who actually put money into the economy to enable those highly qualified people to study.

 

On 2/7/2019, 9:30:32, swimmer said:

The average FT salary is 49k

Even with 50-60 hour weeks I don't earn anything like that.

 

 

On 2/7/2019, 3:09:28, jeba said:

Plus I haven´t worked too much as I retired aged 38

What job were you doing that allowed you to retire at that age ?

 

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On 2/7/2019, 11:08:21, French bean said:

Sorry matey but you accept a plumber or a garage  bill so why are carers any different? Why should they not be paid for the skill and knowledge they have?

Because people don't give a fuck about them basically.

It appears that in the world and on this forum if you don't actually make money for your employers then why should you be considered as worthwhile as those who do.

Sometimes the attitude of people is fucking disgusting.

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1 hour ago, Keleth said:

But if it wasn't for teachers then there wouldn't be any engineers in the first place.

Wrong, if there is one single thing that distinguishes an engineer from other professions is the ability to self learn.

 

 

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

Studying does not make someone an engineer or whatever

Agree, either you are born an engineer or you are not.

 

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

.A great percentage of people could study for years and still wouldn't understand anything.That's the human race for you.

And if everybody was highly qualified then who would clean up after engineers etc.

Lesser engineers, of course :D

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1 hour ago, Keleth said:

So highly qualified people were in school studying until 25 or whenever whereas lowly qualified people were in work at 16 earning money to keep themselves alive.Yer fuck those low qualified spongers who actually put money into the economy to enable those highly qualified people to study.

Wrong reasoning, the high qualified people will return more money to the society later on. But nice try.

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1 hour ago, Keleth said:

Not until there are laws to stop companies exploiting its workers.

Offering someone a job isn´t the same as exploiting them, especially if there is minimum wage. Plus not everybody is employed by a company. See private carers. How many people can afford to employ them in Germany given minimum wage and Arbeitszeitgesetz? 

 

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

Studying does not make someone an engineer or whatever.

Neither does not studying.

 

1 hour ago, Keleth said:

What job were you doing that allowed you to retire at that age ?

Physician. However, my salary wouldn´t have allowed me to retire early. Having lived very frugally and taking crazy risks at investing did in combination with my widower´s pension. And when making that decision (which btw. wasn´t an easy one but rather due to unfortunate circumstances - guess why you´d receive a widower´s pension) I relied on that my relative purchasing power would moreless stay the same. An assumption which is becoming shakey if unions adopt a class-fighting stance as I cannot strike for higher interest rates or dividends.

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On 7.2.2019, 10:45:19, MikeMelga said:

public service teachers earning much more than engineers, working only 28h per week, vs 40h for engineers. Many other examples like that.

 

For someone who busily comments on schooling, you are remarkably clueless about teaching. Those 28 hours are the tip of the iceberg. Preparation, marking, admin - how many of the 28 hours are set aside for those tasks? They still need done. 

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9 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Wrong, if there is one single thing that distinguishes an engineer from other professions is the ability to self learn.

"Hello Mr head of HR for Siemens,I'm an engineer.I've no qualifications,I'm self taught"

Head of HR "Oh please take this lifetime contract and 100k a year,please come and work for us"

 

Who taught you your times table ?

Oh wait you were self learning at 5 ?

 

9 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Wrong reasoning, the high qualified people will return more money to the society later on. But nice try.

Not if the low skilled workers were paid the same as engineers they wouldn't.

 

That is my whole point.

You seem to believe that someones worth to society is solely based on how much money they earn.

9 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Lesser engineers, of course :D

Although that is amusing there is no such thing .

You are no better an engineer than any other engineer because apparently engineers self learn so they must all be equal.

 

 

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9 hours ago, jeba said:

Offering someone a job isn´t the same as exploiting them, especially if there is minimum wage. Plus not everybody is employed by a company. See private carers. How many people can afford to employ them in Germany given minimum wage and Arbeitszeitgesetz? 

 

But you just said the minimum wage for a carer is too much so expecting to be able to employ them for less is exploiting them yes ?

Do you know about poverty and people trying to get out of poverty ?

Is not the problem that the person paying the carer has not been fairly paid over the years rather than the carer being paid too much ?

There is no way I can afford a carer when my wife eventually needs one,I'm going to have to give up work and do it myself which means I will then be living off the state.

Is that because a carer would cost me too much because they earn too much or more the fact because the job I do (even though essential to running of the company) is not well renumerated because I don't earn enough money for them ?

 

7 hours ago, kiplette said:

For someone who busily comments on schooling, you are remarkably clueless about teaching. Those 28 hours are the tip of the iceberg. Preparation, marking, admin - how many of the 28 hours are set aside for those tasks? They still need done.

He's stated he doesn't need teachers so why should he know anything about them.

 

12 hours ago, Marianne013 said:

Even if you go and show that an employer treats their employees unfairly, people will go for the cheapest price, no matter what the reputation of the company (Amazon anyone?).

As an aside (goes to show some peoples attitude) I was reading another forum about health care (mainly about the US) and it's amazing how many people who up until then seemed perfectly normal balked at the idea of companies like Amazon giving up some of their profits to provide health care for their workers.

A lot of people seem stuck in the notion that if you work hard you will end up rich.

 

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Not sure exactly which Verdi strike @jeba is complaining about, but in general it has been my experience that strikes are announced with reasonable time. 

 

For example, this week is not good in Berlin, BVG (Verdi union) is striking this Friday and I heard about it on the radio already yesterday, not sure when they announced it because last week we were in holidays.   BVG run the U-bahn, buses and trams, so we still get to use the S-bahn and the regional trains.  So while disturbing, there is still a solution, just walk a bit and find the nearest S-bahn and take that, instead of the normal thing you take that.   So the real change for most affected people is having to walk 1 or 2 km instead of 200m.   Yes, if is annoying but it is just one day.

 

One of our kids' class is going to the Berlinale on Friday and the teachers school decision is to walk to the S-bahn.

 

And then teachers and educators in schools and kindergartens are striking tomorrow Wednesday and the announce was in the newspapers on Friday.   Some kindergartens will have to close, but most schools will be open and run by the teachers that are not in the union.

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On 2/8/2019, 1:19:43, Marianne013 said:

Most people don't strike lightly as they then don't get paid. I lost around ~1200 Euros last year due to being on strike and while I am not poor, this is not the kind of sum I can ignore.

 

If you are a member of the union then they will pay for your salary while striking.   Even when striking to support other strikes.   

 

The problem is being a union member is not cheap.  But it includes other perks, like legal support if you get fired.

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2 hours ago, Keleth said:

But you just said the minimum wage for a carer is too much so expecting to be able to employ them for less is exploiting them yes ?

I don´t see it like that. For people from e. g. Poland or third world countries € 600/month plus travel expenses plus free housing and food is decent money. Isn´t that a win-win situation? The elderly person in need of caregiving can stay at home rather than having to go to an old age home and the carers earn much more than they would have earned at home. Would you rather have your parents go to an old age home? Or will you want to go there once you´re old? Introduction of minimum wage destroyed that option in Germany for most people - which in my view is outrageous. The Cyprus approach seems to be much more sensible. It is for that approach that numbers of  people from the Philippines and Sri Lanka are ranking number 1 and 3 among non-EU residents here (https://in-cyprus.com/third-country-nationals-make-up-7-of-population/).

Is it sensible to force the elderly to leave Germany in order to be able to afford a caregiver?

 

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

Do you know about poverty and people trying to get out of poverty ?

Is not the problem that the person paying the carer has not been fairly paid over the years rather than the carer being paid too much ?

 

That is helping the poor to get out of poverty - otherwise they wouldn´t do it. And what do you think wages would have to be in order to make for pensions high enough for employing private caregivers at German labour standards (it´s not only minimum wage that is the problem but Arbeitszeitgesetz as well which in practice will force you to employ more than one caregiver).

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You are assuming that everyone provides food, etc. for their live-in helpers. In my experience, and I had one, they send their entire paycheck home to support their very poor families. Most employers even made their helpers pay for their own food and toiletries. Bottom line is they give up their entire lives only to help their families back home. I made sure that mine could send all of her pay home to the Philippines. I paid for all of her needs including medical, etc. and took her with me to my hair salon.

 

Many of them are also abused.

 

How would you like to go to a strange country and care for a stranger 24/7 for € 600 a month?

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10 hours ago, kiplette said:

 

For someone who busily comments on schooling, you are remarkably clueless about teaching. Those 28 hours are the tip of the iceberg. Preparation, marking, admin - how many of the 28 hours are set aside for those tasks? They still need done. 

I have 3 teachers on my family, including my mother. The first few years, yes, they need to prepare stuff. Later is just cruising...

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