"führerschein umschreibung" confusion

16 posts in this topic

Hello everyone,

 

So I went to the Burgeramt on Wednesday to change my drivers licence to a german one (I'm an EU member). After I pay the 35E tax, I'm given a paper (https://photos.app.goo.gl/XS7Wm9jbPQSKevyu5) that says I need to do a first aid course and an eye sight test. In all my wisdom, I didn't ask what the next steps are after I do those things and even though the lady there did her best to explain things to me, my german is simply lacking and I wasn't able to understand that much.

 

I now have the first aid and eye sight bestätigung but going over the paper I got, it says nothing on where on when I have to submit them. I went ahead and checked the Fahrerlaubnisbehörde for a termin and saw they need the exact same documents as the Burgeramt.

 

Did I do something wrong here? Does one just go to the Fahrerlaubnisbehörde and doesn't need to got to the Burgeramt?

What are my next steps here?

 

Thx in advance!

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As far as I know, Fahrerlaubnisbehörde takes care of things like this but if it's difficult to get an appointment there, you could try and see if Burgeramt will do it, especially since you started with them.

 

I haven't changed my own license.  I initially asked Führerscheinstelle where I live if I should and they said I don't have to.

 

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If you're an EU member, you don't necessarily have to, unless you have german plates on your car, which is the case with my new car.

 

So you think I should make another appointment with the Burgeramt and present them with all the documents or?

 

Thing is, if I go to the Führerscheinstelle, I'd have to pay the 35E all over again. It doesn't seem fair tbh.

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1 minute ago, xcxvt said:

 

So you think I should make another appointment with the Burgeramt and present them with all the documents or?

 

The letter you got says what you should do:

 

"Um eine Verzögerung bei der Antragsbearbeitung zu vermeiden, reichen Sie bitte fehlende Unterlagen schnellstmöglich unaufgefordert nach."

 

"In order to avoid any delay in processing your application, please submit any missing documents as quickly as possible without being asked."

 

Send you papers or bring them personally, as long as they get there. 

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Well yeah but if you look at the footer, it has the address of the Führerscheinstelle. So I'm confused as to where I have to take the papers.

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As far as I know, you don't even have to have a drivers license to register a car.  I have German plates on my car since 2009 and I can't recall anyone asking about my license.  They want your ID and your insurance.  I bought a new car 18 months ago and nobody asked me about my license for that either.

 

If you still want to do this, I think you'd do better to go to the Bürgeramt because you started there.  However, if you went to the Führerscheinstelle and gave them a copy of the receipt where you already paid, I don't think you'd have to pay again.

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6 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 

As far as I know, you don't even have to have a drivers license to register a car.  I have German plates on my car since 2009 and I can't recall anyone asking about my license.  They want your ID and your insurance.  I bought a new car 18 months ago and nobody asked me about my license for that either.

Actually, very true. It only applies if you already have a driver's licence but from an EU member state and you register a car in germany. That's when you have 3 months IIRC to change your licence to a german one. One added benefit is that you never have to renew it, unlike other union members where you have to do that every 10 years or sooner.

 

Thx for the opinions guys, I'll setup another appointment at the Burgeramt.

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34 minutes ago, xcxvt said:

Actually, very true. It only applies if you already have a driver's licence but from an EU member state and you register a car in germany. That's when you have 3 months IIRC to change your licence to a german one. One added benefit is that you never have to renew it, unlike other union members where you have to do that every 10 years or sooner.

 

Thx for the opinions guys, I'll setup another appointment at the Burgeramt.

 

I'm in the same boat though.  I have an EU license and I haven't changed it, was told that I don't have to change it, been here 10 yrs., registered two cars but the license never came up.  Who told you this?

 

Another thing, the German drivers license is no longer valid for life.  Since 2013, it has a validity of 15 yrs.  Even those who have a German DL issued before 2013 which doesn't have an expiry date will have to renew it in 2033 at the latest, see https://www.verti.de/blog/fuehrerschein-gueltigkeit.jsp

 

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8 hours ago, LeonG said:

 

I'm in the same boat though.  I have an EU license and I haven't changed it, was told that I don't have to change it, been here 10 yrs., registered two cars but the license never came up.  Who told you this?

 

The police at the Puttkamerstraße

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Quote

If you change your residence to another EU country, you don't usually have to change your driving licence. You can use your current licence as long as it remains valid.

If you wish, you can voluntarily exchange your licence for an equivalent one in your new country of residence.

 

Quote

Obligatory exchange

When living abroad, you will have to exchange your driving licence for a local one:

  • if your licence is lost, stolen or damaged
  • after 2 years of usual residence, if you have a driving licence valid for life (only if required by the country where you live)

Source: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/driving-licence/driving-licence-renewal-exchange/index_en.htm

 

Germany doesn´t seem to require it according to https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/driving-licence/driving-licence-renewal-exchange/germany/index_en.htm

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1 hour ago, xcxvt said:

The police at the Puttkamerstraße

 

How did you come to ask the police about this?  In my case, I asked the führerscheinstelle where I live.  I would trust them better to know the details of drivers license regulations than the police.  Of course for the police, it's simpler if everybody just has a German DL.  Maybe that's why they told you that.  I googled this yesterday but couldn't find any regulation stating that you need to exchange an EU license in order to register a car.

 

In my case, my home country license is valid until 2039 so it wouldn't make sense for me to do first aid and pay to exchange it for a license which expires in 2034.

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30 minutes ago, LeonG said:

couldn't find any regulation stating that you need to exchange an EU license in order to register a car.

You don´t. You can own and register a car without a driving license - you just aren´t allowed to drive it.

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13 hours ago, xcxvt said:

It only applies if you already have a driver's licence but from an EU member state and you register a car in germany.

 

Your post contains three statements which are misinterpretations of the actual legal situation.

 

As several others have pointed out it is possible for any resident to register a motor vehicle in Germany whether they have a driving license or not.

 

Thus no condition of § 28 FeV - § 28 Anerkennung von Fahrerlaubnissen aus Mitgliedstaaten der Europäischen Union oder einem anderen Vertragsstaat des Abkommens über den Europäischen Wirtschaftsraum (Ordinance on the admission of persons to road traffic (Driving License Ordinance - FeV) Section 28 - Recognition of driving licenses from Member States of the European Union or another Contracting State to the Agreement on the European Economic AreaSection 28 of the Driving License Ordnance) pertains to vehicle registration.

 

13 hours ago, xcxvt said:

That's when you have 3 months IIRC to change your licence to a german one.

 

Again there are no conditions of Section 28 FeV which refer to any 3 month limitation on the exchange of EU/EEA driving licenses.

 

13 hours ago, xcxvt said:

One added benefit is that you never have to renew it, unlike other union members where you have to do that every 10 years or sooner.

 

Again, since 2002 gradual limitations to the validity of German issued driving licenses have been introduced which depend on the rules which applied to the original type, date and location of issue (i.e. former DDR v BRD or East v West Germany). The most recent changes were with the introduction of the FeV 2010 and its revisions in 2014 and 2016 (to reflect EU directives). Currently no German driving license will be issued without an expiry date and no existing German driving license will continue to be valid beyond dates, (conditional on type, date and location of issue) already announced.

 

That said there are certain conditions of Section 28 FeV which do in effect oblige some holders of EU/EEA driving licences to exchange them for German ones or choose not to drive in Germany if their EU/EEA licences were issued under conditions not recognized under German law. Clarification follows below.

 

§ 28 Abs (1) FeV the first paragraph of Section 28 FeV (in translation) says...

 

Quote

(1) Holders of a valid EU or EEA driving licence who have their normal place of residence in the Federal Republic of Germany within the meaning of § 7 (1) or (2) may - subject to the restrictions pursuant to (2) to (4) - drive motor vehicles in Germany to the extent of their entitlement. Obligations relating to foreign driving licences must also be observed in Germany. The provisions of this Regulation shall apply to driving licences unless otherwise specified.

 

Some examples from §28 Abs (4) or Section 28 paragraph (4) FeV of conditions imposing limitations or exceptions to the above include the following (satz nummer) sentence numbers.

 

Quote

(4) The authorization referred to in paragraph 1 shall not apply to holders of an EU or EEA driving license,

...

7.   whose licence has been exchanged without examination on the basis of a licence issued by a third State not listed in Annex 11 or whose licence has been issued on the basis of a forged driving licence issued by a third State,
8.    who were resident in Germany at the time of the issue of a driving licence issued by a third country which has been exchanged for a foreign EU or EEA driving licence or at the time of the issue of the EU or EEA driving licence on the basis of a driving licence issued by a third country, unless they have exchanged the foreign licence to drive a motor vehicle as a student or pupil within the meaning of § 7 paragraph 2 for a foreign EU or EEA driving licence during a stay of at least six months, or
9.    which presupposes prior possession of another category if the licence for that category, as referred to in points 1 to 8, does not entitle the holder to drive motor vehicles in the territory of the country.

 

I agree with all those who have recommended contacting the Führescheinstelle of your local KFZ-Zulassungsamt for accurate legal information and advice.

 

Bürgerburos are mostly staffed on a rotational part-time basis by officials whose main professional field of knowledge is unrelated to traffic law.

 

There is some degree of logic in expecting the Polizei to know the law in all situations but it is an unrealistic view since the majority of them are only trained to be generalists in police law and not experts on any specific area of the law.

 

OTOH it is reasonable to expect that Polizei officers who are members of the Verkehrswacht (traffic police) will have some expertise in the finer points of the law on driving licenses.

 

If you are unhappy about contacting the Führescheinstelle then you could consult a lawyer with expertise in Verkehrsrecht.

 

2B

 

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and none of the above purports to be legal advice. Under German law only a qualified Rechtsanwalt/in or Jurist is authorized to provide legal advice. 

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On 1/28/2019, 9:44:53, LeonG said:
On 1/28/2019, 10:16:59, jeba said:

You don´t. You can own and register a car without a driving license - you just aren´t allowed to drive it.

 

this got way out of hand.

 

to sum it up, the requirements provided by the Burgeramt are wrong. One does NOT need a first aid course or an eye sight test when changing a drivers licence to a german one IF the country of origin is a member of the EU. Their requirements were wrong and it took them someat the amt to realize and tell me that.

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5 hours ago, xcxvt said:

this got way out of hand.

 

to sum it up, the requirements provided by the Burgeramt are wrong. One does NOT need a first aid course or an eye sight test when changing a drivers licence to a german one IF the country of origin is a member of the EU. Their requirements were wrong and it took them someat the amt to realize and tell me that.

 

Thanks for confirming.  I have an appointment to swap my UK one on 1 March.  Talk about cutting it fine (!)

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51 minutes ago, More tea, Vicar? said:

 

Thanks for confirming.  I have an appointment to swap my UK one on 1 March.  Talk about cutting it fine (!)

Best of luck. A bit more info for you. You can either go to the bürgeramt or the Fahrerlaubnisbehörde. In either case, your dossier will reach the latter. Since Berlin only has one Fahrerlaubnisbehörde, there's quite the (dossier) queue. Find our the current status at https://www.berlin.de/labo/mobilitaet/aktuelles/aktuelle-bearbeitungsstaende-736453.php, under "Antrag auf Umschreibung (ausl. Führerschein, Dienstführerschein)"

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