Tweet about gender neutral toilets stirs controversy

165 posts in this topic

@French bean Do you understand what the "T" in LGBT stands for? If so, how do you reconcile the incongruity of your first sentence? 

 

There is a group of trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs for short), but they are a microscopically small minority.

 

The two people you cited are hateful and reductive and deserving of return trolling, mocking and shunning. Apparently this Posie person was even brought up on charges but is so insignificant that the final disposition doesn't appear to have much reporting. 

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Or maybe they are concerned for the safety of their family members and the rights of women to be able to go about their lives without fear of attack or embarrassment

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1 hour ago, French bean said:

Or maybe they are concerned for the safety of their family members and the rights of transwomen to be able to go about their lives without fear of attack or embarrassment

 

There, fixed that for ya :)

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as I recall the Posy woman claimed that having a uterus, birthing children and bleeding were what defined "real women", correct?

 

as I also recall several of us "real" women pointed out already how utterly stupid that premise is, given the high incidence of menopause, infertility, hysterectomy, etc

 

and regarding the athletics thing, trans women actually have lower levels of testosterone than cis women, and it's been shown that within a year of hormonal transition, they lose any biological edge they may have had as men.  They do continue to be larger if they completed puberty as males, so that edge doesn't disappear but otherwise, it's a wash.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

and regarding the athletics thing, trans women actually have lower levels of testosterone than cis women, and it's been shown that within a year of hormonal transition, they lose any biological edge they may have had as men.  They do continue to be larger if they completed puberty as males, so that edge doesn't disappear but otherwise, it's a wash.

 

If that's the case then they shouldn't mind being tested to ensure that they can compete fairly with women.

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???

 

since when do athletes refuse testing?  it's a pretty standard part of competition, you know

 

I think you're just starting to make things up

 

there are questions about what types of testing are reasonable, as for example, testing for testosterone levels only in trans women is pretty questionable, especially when you look at an athlete like serena williams, who is clearly testosterone heavy through her natural biology.  Would she pass a testosterone test that was designed to filter out trans women who were not "woman enough"?

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11 hours ago, French bean said:

There is no hate, anyone who wants to identify as female is fine but they should accept they are not biologically female. What I hate is the way that a minority is trying to push through a selfish hate filled agenda against women. The evidence is there for the vitriolic bile that some have used against women who dare to question them. That is hate and the tactics used against anyone who questions them are unbelieveable. I have a daughter and I really don't like the idea of her being put at risk by some bloke who decides to identify as female but still has male urges. Karen White is his name  https://news.sky.com/story/transgender-prison-inmate-who-sexually-assaulted-women-jailed-for-life-11523584.

The majority of trans aren't a proble, they just want to go about their business but this agenda pushed through by a hard core minority is a problem.

 

As for knowing trans people I can't say, I have met a lot of gay and infeminate men and didn't have a problem socialising with them at all

 

Gender neutral toilets is not only about trans, the intersex are actually much more than we think, we do not know it because they are mostly all hidden, but they exist.

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1 hour ago, lisa13 said:

 

as I also recall several of us "real" women pointed out already how utterly stupid that premise is, given the high incidence of menopause, infertility, hysterectomy, etc

 

So if being infertile, menopausel, or having a hysterectomy doesn't stop you being a women, which is quite right, how does having a penis and testicles removed mean that someone is no longer a man if they don't want to be?

 

Let me reiterate, there is no problem with LGBT people, the issue is with predatory men who use this as some kind of camouflage to be near women and young girls and the hate filled mysogynistic agenda being promoted by a minority that seem to have large sums of money and powerful backing.

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5 minutes ago, French bean said:

So if being infertile, menopausel, or having a hysterectomy doesn't stop you being a women, which is quite right, how does having a penis and testicles removed mean that someone is no longer a man if they don't want to be?

 

Strange to read this nowadays, maybe 200 years ago lots of people would agree with you.   

 

5 minutes ago, French bean said:

 

Let me reiterate, there is no problem with LGBT people, the issue is with predatory men who use this as some kind of camouflage to be near women and young girls and the hate filled mysogynistic agenda being promoted by a minority that seem to have large sums of money and powerful backing.

 

So because of a minority of dangerous individuals a bunch of innocents have to pay?

 

I guess we should forbid the Internets then, because it is well known it is the predatory's playground.

 

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12 minutes ago, French bean said:

someone is no longer a man if they don't want to be

 

wow...yeah.  you clearly have no earthly clue.  like NONE.

 

and before you reiterate, do read what you've already posted.  it's all over the place and seems to boil down to  "I don't want trans people in my bathroom"

 

funny thing:  of all the attacks perpetrated on women in public restrooms reported last year, guess how many perps were transgender or even "snuck in" dressed as women?

 

oh!

 

ZERO

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The ironic thing is that gender neutral toilets become a "problem" only when there is no gender neutral toilet, so the problem appears when we have the 2 gendered toilets.   Because there are literally gazillions of gender neutral toilets, they are everywhere.  Millions of small restaurants and cafes with only one single toilet.   Gazillions of gender neutral toilets in schools and universities (for teachers).   Most small companies only have gender neutral toilets.   Hairdressing saloons, doctor and dentist practices, small shops, .. everywhere ... even in public offices like city halls, police stations, city libraries, etc.   Gender neutral toilets are basically everywhere when no big amount of toilets are needed.    But once you have the option suddenly having the right to have the option is a must.   But plenty of places do not have the option and no one complains.   

 

Pretty strange, really.   It seems to be a self-contained problem.

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2 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 

 

and regarding the athletics thing, trans women actually have lower levels of testosterone than cis women, and it's been shown that within a year of hormonal transition, they lose any biological edge they may have had as men.  They do continue to be larger if they completed puberty as males, so that edge doesn't disappear but otherwise, it's a wash.

 

 

 

 

 

It's not just about hormones. Males that have had hormones and surgery still have a male pelvis shape, thigh bone length, height, lung volume, arm span and  muscles of a male. 

 

55 minutes ago, Krieg said:

  Gender neutral toilets are basically everywhere when no big amount of toilets are needed.    But once you have the option suddenly having the right to have the option is a must.   But plenty of places do not have the option and no one complains.   

 

 

 

In my experience these are usually single toilets, lockable, with no common space, for instance there are such toilets put up in the middle of cities in case someone has to go; of course they are better than nothing. And nobody is saying public female toilets are a "must"; it's just that when they do exist, for instance in restaurants, train stations and airports, they are a godsend for females because we do have other "needs", and I still don't see the benefit of opening the women's ones to men.

 

As I said before: it's not just a question of safety or of being attacked; it's a question of privacy. Women use the restrooms for more than pee and crap. If we do have these spaces, we'd like to keep them, thank you. Yes, maybe it is female privilege; but don't you think a little privilege is due to us?

 

There is a movement in the UK towards self ID which means that anyone at any time can declare themselves the opposite sex, and to question this is illegal. No hormones or operation needed. And you can change back the next day if you want. Do you really think that all men are so honourable as to not abuse the system? Even after the whole #metoo movement?

 

How do you feel about the demand of transwomen that lesbians should have sex with transwomen with penises? That if they don't it's transphobic? Many lesbians in the UK are up in arms about this.

 

I am concerned about the very definition of woman is being taken away from women, and with it go all our hard-won rights and protections. That is all. The bullying and aggression that goes with some of these activists is not at all "feminine", I have to say! And it is destroying a lot f the support and kindness women felt towards trans people in the past. Many body dysphoric transpeople  have spoken out against it and are just as concerned. It does not work in their favour. Even with this mild post of my opinion I'll probably be labelled a transphobe or terf!

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37 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

 

 Even with this mild post of my opinion I'll probably be labelled a transphobe or terf!

That makes two of us then even though we believe in debate and freedom to express an opinion which the hard core obviously do not.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-46139085

 

or

 

http://thefederalist.com/2018/11/25/twitter-permanently-bans-feminist-writing-men-arent-women/

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47 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

Yes, maybe it is female privilege; but don't you think a little privilege is due to us?

 

And here I thought we were finally in the path to achieve gender equality.

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I will try to keep my comments limited as this is a hot issue and I have some weird opinions.

 

1. I don't know that I'm so super comfortable watching strange women get naked around me in places where we usually have our clothes on.  There is kind of a non-negligible difference between a swimming pool locker room and a regular airport bathroom.  I'm not saying don't get naked, but I'd be lying if I said watching a strange woman strip down in front of me in the McDonald's toilet was the most normal and comfortable thing in the world.  I don't really want to watch any strangers get naked, regardless of their sex.

 

2. Men who are violent sex offenders are not going to pretend to be trans in order to get into the ladies' so they can attack people.  It's just not their MO.  So next.

 

3. In Berlin, one way of achieving "safe spaces" at events is to declare them cis-men free zones.  So in places where there was the luxury of choice, you could have unisex toilets and cis-men free toilets.  That also allows transmen to use the ladies' in places where they feel their safety compromised by using the gents', and, again, seeing a masculine-looking (ex-) woman using the toilet should also already be the most normal thing in the world, and whether they need to fear transwomen using the loo, see #2.

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24 minutes ago, dessa_dangerous said:

3. In Berlin, one way of achieving "safe spaces" at events is to declare them cis-men free zones.  So in places where there was the luxury of choice, you could have unisex toilets and cis-men free toilets.  

 

Holy discrimination and an insult to us ... cis-men.   

 

Banning all men to achieve safety.   Like ... seriously?  WTF?  What's next?   Female only trains?

 

I think the terrorists have won.

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although in general, I think restricting men from places definitely does reduce the likelihood of violent offense... you can get as mad as you want but you can't deny that most of the rapes and murders, armed robbery et al like, almost all--are done by guys

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3 hours ago, Krieg said:

So because of a minority of dangerous individuals a bunch of innocents have to pay?

 

This phrase could literally be a copy and paste from a discussion of muslims.  I wonder if the subject was changed from gender to religion how many people would change sides?

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