Tweet about gender neutral toilets stirs controversy

165 posts in this topic

The odd thing about the bathroom discussion is that it is framed as two opposing sides: One that hates women and the other that hates trans people. 

My gut feeling is that neither is true, it is rather people who dont want men in womens toilets on the one side and people who doint want trans people excluded on the other.

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4 minutes ago, zwiebelfisch said:

My gut feeling is that neither is true, it is rather people who dont want men in womens toilets on the one side and people who doint want trans people excluded on the other.

 

Indeed. A good solution for trans people needs to be found and built  into legislation on such public hygiene matters. Research does need to be done urgently to establish the dimension and complexity of this topic. 

 

This solution, however, does not need to encroach on women and girls intimate space.

 

You cannot have a solution which sets out to respect trans needs but disrespects by default women and girls in the process. 

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To me there is a solution. Tackle it like the disabled toilets. You see it in smaller establishments, i.e. single bathrooms (toilet and sink) that are not gender specific. Bigger places can then add a pissour for men and a cubicle room for women. So let's say each place needs one disabled toilet and one "bathroom" toilet to begin with and then they can expand from there as demand and space permits.

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1 hour ago, arunadasi said:

 Going into the toilet that YOU want is not an option if it disturbs the privacy and dignity of others. 

 

So if you are going to the ladies and some person there is disturbed that you are changing your clothes there or whatever, would you stop doing it?  Or what if you had a female who looks masculine, should she refrain from going to the ladies because her presence might offend someone?  Should she go to the mens even though her presence there might also offend someone and it might be unsafe for her?

 

Although I agree we should try to refrain from offending others, sometimes there are issues where you just can't make everybody happy.  I think the autobahn solution is pretty good.  The more recent pit stops have all single stalls that open directly from the outside and are not gender specific.  They are big enough to help a child or for two bff to go together or to change your clothes if you want to.  And there is one extra stall reserved for urinals where those who have the necessary equipment can take a leak in the company of their mates.

 

 

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@dessa_dangerous (sorry for the target but I don't know if any other mods are looking at the boards these days) since this topic is becoming a spirited discussion, do you think a topic split from hooperski's original post on the last page is in order so that we can get back to discussing the title in proper?  Just name it something pithy like "to pee or not to pee, where, is the question?" and I'm sure people will find it.  Just asking.

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33 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 

So if you are going to the ladies and some person there is disturbed that you are changing your clothes there or whatever, would you stop doing it? 


It's not that THEY are disturbed that I am changing my clothes, it's that I don't want some male walking in on me when I'm doing it! :)

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Or what if you had a female who looks masculine, should she refrain from going to the ladies because her presence might offend someone?  Should she go to the mens even though her presence there might also offend someone and it might be unsafe for her?

 

 

I don't have an answer to the trans problem, but I think single toilets are probably best. My concern is solely about making all toilets available for everyone; ie "gender neutral"  = no private space for women and girls. I think men don't mind about privacy that much. i know that in France sometimes when the women's queues get too long they just march into the men's. (gender neutral is a misnomer. My argument is about bodies, not about gender; bodily functions and privacy for those who need it. )

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3 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

 

It's not that THEY are disturbed that I am changing my clothes, it's that I don't want some male walking in on me when I'm doing it! :)

 

Ok, so you don't care if other ladies are disturbed by you changing your clothes as long as you don't get disturbed doing it? :)  

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45 minutes ago, LeonG said:

Although I agree we should try to refrain from offending others, sometimes there are issues where you just can't make everybody happy.

 

 

You do realize that the majority of the world's population is women and girls?  You do realize that there are different biological functions that need to be take care of in toilets by men and women? You do realize that you have no understanding of the needs of women and girls in this context, either physically and practically or emotionally and subjectively?  But yet you give the impression that it is a topic you should have an opinion about and be able to take decisions on women's behalf.

 

Looks like mansplaining at its finest to me. 

 

I am not seeing any suggestions here that suggest that men give up any of their entitlements to accommodate new needs. 

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No.Women know that they can do that there, just as they know they can put on makeup, cry, vomit  when they've drunk too much, deal with period accidents etc in the ladies'. It's a private space for all these intimate things. That's what the space in front of the ladies' loos is for. We understand that. Just like the changing rooms  and showers at swimming pools -- lots of naked women in there. You don't think, oh hell, someone might get offended seeing me naked. You just get out of your things. But you don't want men walking in while doing so.

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12 minutes ago, Kommentarlos said:

I am not seeing any suggestions here that suggest that men give up any of their entitlements to accommodate new needs. 

 

That's not true.  Men also have to tolerate feminine looking persons walking into the mens.  Some may be transmen, some may be non binaries and some may even be women who are avoiding the long line in the ladies room.  The last bit is actually common where I come from, especially at the clubs.

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I watched a really shocking documentary on television about intersex people and how difficult life is for them. 1 in 2000 people are intersex. That is quite a lot when you think about it.

 

Some of it was very sad, especially the decision some parents made to castrate the child and bring them up as a girl/boy rather than leave them intersex, the way they were.

 

It is really unfair that intersex people are treated this way. We as a society should be more tolerant.

 

 

 

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I think I saw an intersex baby when I was 20, travelling in Ecuador. Born to a woman in an Ecuadorian fishing village. I saw the baby just after it was born and couldn't tell the sex. I asked the women there (midwife delivery) and they just shrugged. I often thought about that baby over the years, wondering what happened. I had no idea at the time that such a thing as intersex existed.

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16 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 

That's not true.  Men also have to tolerate feminine looking persons walking into the mens.  Some may be transmen, some may be non binaries and some may even be women who are avoiding the long line in the ladies room.  The last bit is actually common where I come from, especially at the clubs.

 

I did say in my post above that " I think men don't mind about privacy that much. " We ARE different, have different biological needs and different privacy needs. A woman walking past a row of men standing at a urinal? Men tend to shrug it off. You say it's common where you're from -- but is there a huge protest on the part of men? They "tolerate" it, you say. Women don't tolerate it. Men walking past a woman changing her tampon? Well...

 

Do you see the difference?

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Going even further, absorbed twins...

 

 

So what if your twin had been the opposite sex?

 

You could be in a female body with a male brain or vice versa...

 

Makes you think right?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 

That's not true.  Men also have to tolerate feminine looking persons walking into the mens.  Some may be transmen, some may be non binaries and some may even be women who are avoiding the long line in the ladies room.  The last bit is actually common where I come from, especially at the clubs.

Not sure how relevant this is but my Nicole slunk back from a ladies toilet at a local café the other day (without herself going to the toilet ) because the café visitors ( women ) had left the place unwholesome...shit left unflushed etc.

It is difficult to find a clean toilet here...whoever goes in. 

And she saw a woman go in, not wash her hands and then serve customers....

So, it´s not only men or women and which toilet but what about afterwards? Hygiene...

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3 minutes ago, john g. said:

It is difficult to find a clean toilet here...whoever goes in. 

And she saw a woman go in, not wash her hands and then serve customers...

So, it´s not only men or women and which toilet but what about afterwards? Hygiene...

 

I was always told never to eat the peanuts in the bowl at the bar in a pub... ewwww...

Guess that is one of the reasons why.

 

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15 minutes ago, arunadasi said:

I did say in my post above that " I think men don't mind about privacy that much. " We ARE different, have different biological needs and different privacy needs. A woman walking past a row of men standing at a urinal? Men tend to shrug it off. You say it's common where you're from -- but is there a huge protest on the part of men? They "tolerate" it, you say. Women don't tolerate it. Men walking past a woman changing her tampon? Well...

 

Do you see the difference?

 

Some guys are bothered by it but it would be considered petty or wimpy to complain.  I've only see a couple of times that men have given a look or said "hey, this is the mens" in such circumstances.  Nobody got maced, nobody called security.

 

So do women actually change their tampons while out in the open standing by the sinks?  Or they do it in a cubicle?  If they tend to do it by the sinks, I guess you have a point.

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34 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 

That's not true.  Men also have to tolerate feminine looking persons walking into the mens.  Some may be transmen, some may be non binaries and some may even be women who are avoiding the long line in the ladies room.  The last bit is actually common where I come from, especially at the clubs.

33 minutes ago, LeonG said:

 

That's not true.  Men also have to tolerate feminine looking persons walking into the mens.  Some may be transmen, some may be non binaries and some may even be women who are avoiding the long line in the ladies room.  The last bit is actually common where I come from, especially at the clubs.

The only thing I care about is:

is the toilet clean (ish)? Does it flush? Is paper there? Is there soap to clean my hands? Don´t care who is also there.

Crete as a whole: fail.

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