British Citizens Rights No Deal Brexit

[scook17 292]

I see there is some info here for Munich.

https://www.muenchen.de/rathaus/home_en/Department-of-Public-Order/Foreigners-Office/Brexit.html

 

As far as I am aware, there is nothing I can do, ahead of the UK deciding to leave or stay. I looked at applying for German citizenship, but this requires German B2, and I doubt I could pass an A1 test. I can not apply as a foreign resident because the UK is within the EU. Munich does not accept such applications until the UK actually leaves.

 

[pappnase 2,654]

The language requirement is actually easier than B2, it is  "a sufficient command of the German language"  see translation of the relevant law here. The guys processing the applications have  a lot of leeway when interpreting that, they MUST accept a B1 certificate, but they can accept less, they certainly did in my case.

I would strongly suggest that anyone who is even close to qualifying for a German passport (and that means you @scook17) gets an application in ASAP.

 

If you can't get another EU passport in time, the German gov FAQ on brexit is worth a read.

 

Also worth reading the UK gov guidance here its not great but it might get you started.

 

 

[scook17 292]

I found some info on citizenship.

http://www.bamf.de/EN/Willkommen/Einbuergerung/InDeutschland/indeutschland-node.html

https://www.bmi.bund.de/DE/themen/verfassung/staatsangehoerigkeit/einbuergerung/einbuergerung-node.html

 

"Conditions

You have a right to naturalisation if you fulfil the following conditions:

• you have an unrestricted right of residence at the time of being naturalised,
• you have passed the naturalisation test (knowledge of the legal and social system, as well as living conditions in Germany),
• your habitual, lawful place of residence has been in Germany for eight years (this period can be reduced to seven years if you attend an integration course successfully, and can be reduced to as few as six years in the case of special integration measures),
• you have independent means of securing a living (including for family members entitled to maintenance) without resorting to welfare payments and unemployment benefit II,
• you have adequate German-language skills,
• you do not have any convictions on account of a criminal offence,
• you are committed to the free democratic constitutional order of the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany, and
• you have lost or given up your former nationality (exceptions apply with regard to this point, depending on the country of origin; please contact the naturalisation authority)."

I am guessing the key issue here, is whilst the UK is within the EU, you meet the first criteria, right to residence, which will stop as of Oct 31st.

 

I also wonder how the last element works. Are you required to give up UK citizenship? According to 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

This does not apply to EU nationals. Anyone know if this is at the time of application, or at the time of approval?

[pappnase 2,654]

Regarding your right to residence, no you won't lose that on day 1, the relevant laws  made by the German government to cover both 'deal' and 'no deal' scenarios give a grace period during which your rights to remain in Germany will remain the same, but your obligations to retain those rights will change.

So for at least 3 months after brexit day, you won't be an EU citizen but you will have a right to remain in Germany. During this period you will be able to apply for required visa's and work permits etc to continue living your life here.

 

Regarding your current nationality, if you are a UK citizen and you start your application now, then it is likely you will get to keep both UK and German citizenship.

If you wait until after brexit day then you will certainly have to give up your UK citizenship, but applying for German citizenship is still one of the ways you can regularise your stay in Germany in the transition period.

 

 

Edit to add, take a look at this website for more reassurance.  https://britishingermany.org/2018/12/27/german-federal-advice-on-residence-and-brexit/

[dj_jay_smith 3,449]

9 minutes ago, scook17 said:

...

 

I also wonder how the last element works. Are you required to give up UK citizenship? According to 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

This does not apply to EU nationals. Anyone know if this is at the time of application, or at the time of approval?

 

 

According to what others have posted on here, they have been told to expect that this will be determined based upon your time of application (not approval).

 

[LukeSkywalker 7,662]

If you can barely manage A1 after being in the country for 15 years, I highly doubt the authorities will grant you German citizenship.

[scook17 292]

4 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

If you can barely manage A1 after being in the country for 15 years, I highly doubt the authorities will grant you German citizenship.

But how long exactly do you have to pass this "have adequate German-language skills" requirement after application? It this just presentation of a B1 certificate? Can you not delay until such time as you have this? Does the whole process not take forever anyway?

[pappnase 2,654]

You can delay until you meet the requirements, but if you apply after brexit day then the rules change and you will almost certainly have to give up your UK citizenship.

You can start the application now even if you don't meet all the requirements.

The exact list of what the clerk processing your application needs is decided on a case by case basis, so make your initial appointment take someone with you if you don't speak good enough German get the actual list for your explicit case rather than a sample set from the internet.

Get the forms submitted and then get started on passing your exams.

 

You have no automatic right to citizenship until you meet the requirements,  and it is highly likely that they won't even start processing it if you really are at < A1 level, but there is discretion allowed and you are allowed to apply.

 

 

[LeonG 14,861]

If you need to learn German to pass a test to allow you to stay, you should start to learn German now, not ponder while the clock is ticking.  In order to get permanent residency, you need German too.

 

Where is your spouse from though?  If your spouse is German or EU, that gives you more options.

[Alittlec 0]

Quote

Where is your spouse from though?  If your spouse is German or EU, that gives you more options. 

 

My wife is Spanish, what options does that give us?

[LeonG 14,861]

Just now, Alittlec said:

 

My wife is Spanish, what options does that give us?

 

If your wife is Spanish, you are the spouse of an EU citizen and can get a visa based on that.  Make an appointment with your local ABH to talk about your options.

[john_b 3,387]

If you are married to a German, the residence requirement is reduced from 8 to 3 years.

[scook17 292]

4 hours ago, LeonG said:

In order to get permanent residency, you need German too.

Interesting. I did not realise that about residency.

 

More details here: https://www.germany-visa.org/german-residence-permit/

And a guide here  https://www.german-way.com/for-expats/living-in-germany/getting-a-residence-permit-for-germany/how-to-immigrate-to-germany/

 

Basically unless you have German B1 you can't get residency or citizenship.

 

[starkebogen 149]

11 minutes ago, scook17 said:

Basically unless you have German B1 you can't get residency or citizenship.

 

I'm not sure this is always the case.  I understand, but am not certain, that there are some exceptions to the rule - one example being for those who are over 60.

Happy to be corrected.

[LeonG 14,861]

53 minutes ago, scook17 said:

Interesting. I did not realise that about residency.

 

More details here: https://www.germany-visa.org/german-residence-permit/

And a guide here  https://www.german-way.com/for-expats/living-in-germany/getting-a-residence-permit-for-germany/how-to-immigrate-to-germany/

 

Basically unless you have German B1 you can't get residency or citizenship.

 

Maybe not permanent but as long as you have an EU spouse you can get 5 years and after 5 years I suppose you can renew again.

[kaffeemitmilch 1,295]

After 5 years as the spouse of an EU national, you get permanent residency.

 

Regarding the language requirement for permanent residency (not EU, but Niederlassungserlaubnis), it can be waived, as it was for me. I'm not sure why (could be because I have a degree, or because I had a Dutch residence permit, or because I had passable German?), but I was not asked to take a language test or join an integration course for either my residence permit or permanent residence permit (as the spouse of a German national). Ask them for the requirements and see if they mention it.

[Space Cowboy 1,466]

On 9/17/2019, 2:52:29, kaffeemitmilch said:

After 5 years as the spouse of an EU national, you get permanent residency.

 

If you are in Germany for family unification purposes (married to a German, or are the parent of a German minor child), you can apply for a Niederlassungserlaubnis after just 3 years of residence, and the standard requirement to have paid multiple years into Rentenversicherung is waived.

 

On 9/17/2019, 2:52:29, kaffeemitmilch said:

 

Regarding the language requirement for permanent residency (not EU, but Niederlassungserlaubnis), it can be waived, as it was for me. I'm not sure why (could be because I have a degree, or because I had a Dutch residence permit, or because I had passable German?), but I was not asked to take a language test or join an integration course for either my residence permit or permanent residence permit (as the spouse of a German national). Ask them for the requirements and see if they mention it.

 

Interesting.  I was required to take an integration course and pass (at minimum) the B1 test to keep my temporary residence permit, and I was required to submit proof that I had done so when I applied for the Niederlassungserlaubnis.  I was never asked about my university education in either instance.

 

I would certainly not count on getting a waiver for the integration course or language test.

[kaffeemitmilch 1,295]

To be fair, I did ask them if I could take the subsidized language course, but they told me I didn't need it (I really did). So, I was surprised (and a bit disappointed), but I didn't want to argue.

[AdHa 55]

So, the UK parliament voted down Clause 5 yesterday.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-withdrawal-agreement-bill-timetable-eu-a4328991.html

 

Spain has said it will only allow Brits to retain a right to remain if the UK does the same... as the UK has now voted to not allow an automatic right to remain all those OAPs on the Costas could well be in for a very nasty surprise on 1st Feb. Does anyone know the situation for Germany?

 

PS: It won't affect me as I have dual citizenship but some readers may need to get their lives in order very quickly.

[dj_jay_smith 3,449]

Well firstly nothing much will change on Feb 1st, as the transition agreement lasts until end of 2020.  Which means that all agreements remain the same until then (hence why we will hear people in the UK in the 11 months saying that Brexit has not had any (negative) impact !!!)

 

 

I also think that Spain is more reliant on all these OAPs to boast the economy of a lot of places and actually won't want to lose them.  So they might be prepared to "compromise" over this.  Which might mean different rights for those already there vs. those who want to move in the future.  Which seems to basically be the approach taken by the UK.

 

But the whole approach from the EU has been unified, so at this stage I don't expect different statements from different countries, they have said that the rights be be like for like, and they will wait first to see what actually passes into law in the UK and the official stance during negotiations before saying much.

 

So let's see what happens.