British Citizens Rights No Deal Brexit

[dj_ad1200 6]

As “B-Day” is getting closer and “No Deal” is looking more and more likely each day, has anybody heard anything from Germany about the rights of British in Germany in the event of a No Deal?

Will they be forced to return to the UK?

[fraufruit 42,695]

Please check out this PDF that LeCheese put up in the Brexit thread just yesterday.

 

 

[swimmer 3,707]

There's nothing much specific to hear "from Germany" or other EU state.  It's the EU as a whole and the UK that's making the agreement (as per above link).   Two years on and many Britons in the UK still seem not to understand that sort of absolute basic about Brexit.   Otherwise, it's just almost all normal process for non-EU foreigners (aka third party nationals) according to various official factors such as if we have permanent residency etc and personal ones such as if we can manage in the new setting.  Leave means Leave.  Not special favours for the British.

 

But what is really noticable after that revelation yesterday?

 

One Leaver stock line we have heard for two years was "...but nobody will be deported".   Of course not.   States are not normally that crass.  But they definitely know how to edge unwanted foreigners out.

 

But, yesterday, our (UK) government officially started talking about potential repatriation of Britons.  Not much difference there, in terms of outcome.    Surprise . 

[rodisi 657]

All I know is the AOK person told me that as of 29 March I lose my AOK card. What the hell happens after that, I have no idea.

[Metall 14,576]

10 minutes ago, rodisi said:

All I know is the AOK person told me that as of 29 March I lose my AOK card. What the hell happens after that, I have no idea.

 

But why?

Lots of non EU foreigners have German public health insurance, why would the AOK kick out a paying member?

[swimmer 3,707]

Now that's interesting, but perhaps not the easiest thing to get one's head round at midnight Friday.

 

I guess the basic premise of such an assertion (regardless of its veracity or robustness) is that it will be technically different at least and so a line must be drawn under the EU basis, and also possibly that "no deal" means that no "citizens' right" to healthcare would yet be in place.   Ongoing right to healthcare is in the withdrawal agreement but of course (1) that would have to be signed and (2) we would appear to have to join the "citizens' rights" process that Germany adopts to access those rights.     So I can see why some parties may possibly form that view, saying nothing of robustness.   It's dodgy if Krankenkassen are actually saying this, though.  This is why I always found talk of "rights" a bit flaky.  Easy word to bat about, but what actually does it mean in practical terms?  (EDIT-  What the AOK website is about posted workers in the UK and that will have a different process after 29 March).

 

Bear in mind that not every member is a "paying member".   Not by a long way.   About 10% of Britons here are unemployed, on welfare.  Others are covered by a spouse or parent.  Others are obtaining cover in retirement via S1 (UK subsidy) etc.    Paying members are also in Germany on a free movement basis that non-EU nationals do not have, and so the entry routes (eligibility) is different.

 

No single local factor (be it healthcare or other) will  trump the agreement the EU states and the UK make.   That is what we will be working to.   Krankenkassen won't set the rules about healthcare in relation to former EU citizens.   The will just follow them, and apply the process. 

[pappnase 2,654]

If  the AOK cards are like mine from BKK, then my guess is that because the back of the card is an EHIC that part will no longer be valid for UK citizens in a 'no-deal' situation regardless of our employment status etc. 

In reality though anyone telling you what will happen on March 29th is speculating, not stating facts, the only thing that is 'certain' is that we don't know what will happen yet because the decisions haven't been made.

If you have any chance to reduce the uncertainty by getting another EU citizenship before Brexit day then do it ASAP.

[HEM 11,165]

9 hours ago, rodisi said:

All I know is the AOK person told me that as of 29 March I lose my AOK card.

Do you have that in writing?

[swimmer 3,707]

6 hours ago, pappnase said:

In reality though anyone telling you what will happen on March 29th is speculating, not stating facts, the only thing that is 'certain' is that we don't know what will happen yet because the decisions haven't been made.

 

That's not always true.  AOK says certificate for workers assigned to the UK will end on 29 March, for instance.   The counterpoint of "only EU and UK decides the rules" is that other parties still have certain choices about how to respond and how to manage their risk within that, and according to local law.

 

https://www.aok-business.de/fachthemen/sozialversicherungsrecht/entsendungen-und-saisonkraefte/entsendungen/vereinigtes-koenigreich-brexit/

 

The European Commission has also told us generally what we need to do:

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/communication-preparing-withdrawal-brexit-preparedness-13-11-2018.pdf

 

That's the one that says we citizens are responsible for applying for all the authorities, licences etc that we need.  So your suggestion is one of those possibilites (according to situ).    This post actually reminded me that I should tell my insurer I have dual nationality now, not sure I ever did, so may as well make 100% sure.

 

Now less than 4 months to exit date, I think we should expect such parties to be starting to tell us what will happen.  They cannot just wait, they still have to make choices etc.   Lack of an agreement doesn't / will not stop that.   They'd just work on the basis of no agreement, until told otherwise.

[pappnase 2,654]

Yeah, except that is the status " Stand: 1.6.2018 ", if things change then that status will change too.

For example one of the possible options (And I don't think its really likely but it is still an option), is that the UK withdraws Article 50. If they do that then whatever AOK says on their website won't actually apply because the UK will still be the in the EU and the old rules will still apply.

 

[swimmer 3,707]

Just to add - It can't be related to EHIC because AOK members' participation in that derives frrom German Krankenkassen participation in EHIC.  It's not related to the nationality of members.   

 

EHIC is almost nothing to do with Brexit, apart from whether the UK decides and EU agrees that UK still participates (or not).    

 

The only impact on Krankenkassen members (all nationality) at worst would be that EHIC can no longer be used when visiting the UK.    Nothing else is changing and no new system is needed for them.

[paulwork 731]

Correct. Those resident/working in DE who own a krankenkasse card can continue to use it to access medical treatment in all 27 EU member states, no matter what the brexit outcome.

 

It is the "issuing country" and not the "nationality" of the holder that counts.

[Metall 14,576]

On 12/8/2018, 12:18:10, swimmer said:

Bear in mind that not every member is a "paying member".   Not by a long way.   About 10% of Britons here are unemployed, on welfare.  Others are covered by a spouse or parent.  Others are obtaining cover in retirement via S1 (UK subsidy) etc.    Paying members are also in Germany on a free movement basis that non-EU nationals do not have, and so the entry routes (eligibility) is different.

 

 

So maybe I'm dense, but even most of the nonpaying members shouldn't lose status:

- the British spouse still is married to a German

- the British kids still have their German parent

- the unemployed Brits? Well, if they are on ALG1 or Hartz4 after having worked and contributed here, shouldn't they also stay in the system? Same for for pensioners who have worked here.

 

The only iffy cases I seem to see are unemployed/retired Brits who came over and are drawing benefits based solely on their contributions in the UK. Now *that* might get sticky.

 

[swimmer 3,707]

Well, who knows?  What does the proposed Citizens' Rights agreement say about ongoing entitlement to healthcare?  That's what will be largely driving our options, especially if no residency or citizenship. 

 

 The point is that many suppositions are not correct.    Not all Krankenkassen members are paying ones.  End.  So supposing that "paying" is a basis for any entitlement is not even relevant for many Britons. They don't pay. It was a bit of an assumption that that poster pays their own membership - many do not.  Paying for stuff often tends not to buy perpetual entitlement and / or favour in the way many people think. ("But I pay tax" is used in the same way).

 

And even those examples -  married people may divorce, children will grow up and no longer have entitlements via parents.   So those bases of being members have conditions, as well.   

 

Our future rights here will derive from Citizens' Rights mainly, on top of any entitlement to residency or citizenship.    That's something I find noticable about the disussion of citizens' rights, and a lot of the debate in general.   It's assumed nobody's life will ever differ from 29.03.2019. Like we are frozen in time, somehow.  I don't see much evidence that changes in lifestyle have been thought through other than definite exclusion (future spouses etc).

[2B_orNot2B 8,451]

Any UK citizens who are here and have not been working in any form of job which does oblige payment of the statutory social contributions, particularly if they do not have a recognized German or BaFin-approved health insurance, may well find themselves in even more trouble than they might presently be.

 

There is one form of emergency 'backstop' which will remain open to cover their immediate survival needs which has nothing to do with either the EU or Brexit.

 

If the UK HoC does indeed reject the May govts advice, does not endorse the UK-EU WA and forces a 'disorderly (no deal) Brexit then that should still have no effect on the existing terms of the Council of Europe Convention on Social and Medical Assistance which was initially agreed in 1953 between the then CoE member states.

 

It has since been endorsed and ratified by all EU member states as well as many other post-communist CoE member states beyond the EU borders.

 

This link Council of Europe Treaty No. 014 Paris 11 Dec 1953 Convention on Social and Medical Assistance (PDF) should hopefully be live but if not then you may have some fun finding a better route via the absolutely mis-named Details of Treaty No.014 European Convention on Social and Medical Assistance which does not show what most ppl would call details at all.

 

One important page to take note of is the Reservations and Declarations for Treaty No.014 - European Convention on Social and Medical Assistance in which there's a list of conditional limitations which many member states have added or amended to meet their national statutory needs. Most of them are simple referrals to changes made in terminology, some from the 1950s - '70s albeit some are quite recent.

 

Germany has made several, the latest in 2005 and 2011 to update in line with the ALG II provisions of the SGB II and XII. The FRG even made changes just 8 days after reunification (11 Oct 1990) presumably in order to close off possible liabilities for carrying costs of non-DDR citizens from other non- or eastern- European countries who may have been living in the 'new federal states'.

 

Not all, but most, Member states of the Council of Europe are signatories to CoE Treaty No.014 including Turkey which signed up 3 years before Germany even joined the CoE.

 

The entire (10 pp) treaty consists of 29 Articles (incl. 5 in the Protocoll) several regarding legal definitions of the terminology used, who it applies to, which state is responsible for what costs etc., etc. but apart from repatriation, the key minimum standards of health and social care are basically those that this quote mentions.

 

Quote

Article 1

 

Each of the Contracting Parties undertakes to ensure that nationals of the other Contracting Parties who are lawfully pres­ent in any part of its territory to which this Convention ap­plies, and who are without suffi­cient resources, shall be entitled equally with its own nationals and on the same conditions to social and medical assistance (hereinaf­ter referred to as “assistance”) provided by the legislation in force from time to time in that part of its territory.

 

Article 2

 

a For the purposes of this Convention the terms “ass­ist­anc­e”, “nationals”, “territory” and “country of origin” shall have the following meanings, that is to say :

 

i “Assistan­ce” means in relation to each Contracting Party all assis­tance granted under the laws and regulations in force in any part of its territory under which persons without suffi­cient resources are granted means of subsistence and the care necessitated by their condition, other than non contributory pensions and benefits paid in respect of war injuries due to foreign occupation.

 

As far as I understand it the exclusion of 'non-contributory pensions and benefits paid in respect of war injuries due to foreign occupation' does not neccessarily mean no-one is going to be able to claim ALG II (Hartz IV) or any post-retirement social security help under this treaty.

 

2B

 

Standard TT disclaimer:

I am not a lawyer and the above does not purport to be legal advice. In Germany only a qualified Rechtsanwalt or Jurist is entitled by law to give legal advice.

[Mackle 802]

On 07/12/2018, 10:17:36, swimmer said:

But, yesterday, our (UK) government officially started talking about potential repatriation of Britons.  Not much difference there, in terms of outcome.    Surprise . 

 

That is really worrying.

 

It's reminded me of reading that Farage gave a talk to British expats (in France I think) before the referendum and when the question was asked "What happens to us if the UK were to leave" the answer was something along the lines of "well, the type of people who have been able to move abroad and flourish are exactly the type of people who can make a different in a new Britain..."

[Metall 14,576]

Wow, I suspect John G and Starshollow are currently swamped with difficult/impossible health insurance questions...

[swimmer 3,707]

Yes.   We may point to potential "rights" but actually executing them is something else.    Having to fall back on treaty to exercise rights probably won't involve simply pointing at said treaty and the counterpart simply smiles and all is hunky dory   It may well involve legal costs, you might think,  and a lot of time.    On top of this, one still has to find several grand a year to pay said health insurance - something many people here make pretty clear is often not easy even with privileges associated with freedom of movement.

 

The "you can always do..."  or pointing to "rights" by referencing something is the easy bit.  Implementing whatever it is will often be the big barrier:  application of knowledge. incurring time / cost, dependence on other parties.    And - naturally - all done in fluent official German.

 

It's like saying: "So you need a family home...no problem, you can build a home in Germany".     The right to do it is the least of it .

 

The key message in my view is as per that post yesterday - Put our affairs in order.

[rodisi 657]

On 12/7/2018, 11:18:10, swimmer said:

Bear in mind that not every member is a "paying member".   Others are obtaining cover in retirement via S1 (UK subsidy) etc.   

Exactly my status.

 

On 12/8/2018, 8:01:22, HEM said:

Do you have that in writing?

No I don't.

 

On 12/8/2018, 3:47:46, pappnase said:

If you have any chance to reduce the uncertainty by getting another EU citizenship before Brexit day then do it ASAP.

As a retired person I don't know what the situation will be if I got citizenship here. I'm now covered healthwise through the S1 form, will I then have to pay into the German system? What about taxes?

 

On 12/8/2018, 2:26:39, swimmer said:

Just to add - It can't be related to EHIC because AOK members' participation in that derives frrom German Krankenkassen participation in EHIC.  It's not related to the nationality of members.   

EHIC is almost nothing to do with Brexit, apart from whether the UK decides and EU agrees that UK still participates (or not).    

The only impact on Krankenkassen members (all nationality) at worst would be that EHIC can no longer be used when visiting the UK.    Nothing else is changing and no new system is needed for them.

The EHIC in my case is issued by Britain.

[robinson100 12,854]

@ Rodisi - I thought the EHIC only covered medical emergencies whilst temporarily abroad...or am I mistaken?