Self owned apartment renovation/structural changes

21 posts in this topic

Dear all,

I bought an apartment that has a huge kitchen and I would like to replann and move the kitchen to living room and made a separate room out of it.


Does somebody know if it requires some approval? Do I need to hire an architect for this kind of work?


Thank you,

Ho

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unsure about the law in Germany, but I would say this is a big "no" in Germany.

At least in Portugal you would need permission from the city hall, a new engineering plan, a new electric plan (also to be approved), a fire department inspection, etc.

 

Unsure what is harder: to requalify the kitchen as a bedroom or to requalify the living room as having a kitchen.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, hoochwo said:

it requires some approval? Do I need to hire an architect for this kind of work?

 

Anything that interferes with the statics is subject to approval. Both from the building authorities (Bauamt) and from the owners' association. Just because you own an apartment, you are not allowed to do what you want with it. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would first ask your housing management.   As in, it's not their responsibility or decision, but they might have some basics to inform you of.   You could establish some things very fast possibly. (As above, owners will have a say).

 

From personal experience, it's certainly very possible with an initial build (as we recently took ownership of one that had much the differences you set out) but not sure about later.   

 

Much around the positioning of a kitchen seems to be driven by electrical possibilities, as per above reply.  I learned that much :rolleyes:.   There are other things to think about like ventilation.   I am not sure if we are lumbered with an initial design forever, given that lifestyles do change.  People knock down walls and such.   Open plan kitchen diner is popular now.   When I saw pics of my old UK place, the kitchen was completely moved.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can route electricity and water pretty much anywhere. Rerouting the drain from the kitchen sink is much more constrained. That's what killed my plan to do the same.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 20/11/2018, 14:34:19, MikeMelga said:

Unsure about the law in Germany, but I would say this is a big "no" in Germany.

At least in Portugal you would need permission from the city hall, a new engineering plan, a new electric plan (also to be approved), a fire department inspection, etc.

 

Unsure what is harder: to requalify the kitchen as a bedroom or to requalify the living room as having a kitchen.

 

My mother, who lives in Munich, did that very thing with a rental property, so not sure why it would be a problem with an owned property as long the changes are structurally sound.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Herr Schnitzel said:

 

My mother, who lives in Munich, did that very thing with a rental property, so not sure why it would be a problem with an owned property as long the changes are structurally sound.

  • gas installation hazards
  • electric installation hazards
  • water installation hazards
  • proper ventilation
  • ...

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 07/12/2018, 08:45:58, MikeMelga said:
  • gas installation hazards
  • electric installation hazards
  • water installation hazards
  • proper ventilation
  • ...

 

 

It strikes me as obvious that anybody with a brain in their head would check on that first. Any builder would only agree to the work if everything is sound.

 

In any case, your statement that this is a big „no“ in Germany is simply wrong. Kitchens got moved to other rooms all the time here.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

why not just get a builder in for a quote and they will advise you.There are english speaking ones on Toytown

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/28/2018, 10:52:41, Mik Dickinson said:

why not just get a builder in for a quote and they will advise you.There are english speaking ones on Toytown

At the end I did it and there is no problem to move the kitchen. I just need a guy with license for electricity works and that's it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you all. 

The answer is : You can do whatever you want until bearing walls not touched. 

And also the team for electrical and gas works should be licensed.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was just going to write what you've said hoochwo.  You can do what you want as long as you are not altering structural walls.

 

About the Electric -  You can run the cables etc into the walls yourself, but the final connections must be made by an electrician.

 

There is info on selbst(dot).de I think it is, for electrical cable zones.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Stephen1 said:

 

About the Electric -  You can run the cables etc into the walls yourself, but the final connections must be made by an electrician.

 

How hard is it to do? I'm not going to be doing it, but I've always been curious. Is it just pulling away the plaster, pulling out the old lines and putting in the new ones, or are you having to thread things blindly through walls? Sorry, I am a complete newb.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have to ask a question like yours... then steer wll clear of any electrical work.

 

Electricity kills !

 

and as you cant be bothered to set a more accurate location in your profile, No one can reccomend a good  or relaible company or starting point

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

If you have to ask a question like yours... then steer wll clear of any electrical work.

 

Electricity kills !

 

and as you cant be bothered to set a more accurate location in your profile, No one can reccomend a good  or relaible company or starting point

 

Yes, I totally agree it is too dangerous and easy to mess up. About the only thing I can do is light fixtures and outlets. 

 

Also, I don't put an accurate location since I would like to maintain some privacy. It is too easy these days for some nutter to track you down with just a little bit of information.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 06/12/2018, 18:11:40, Herr Schnitzel said:

My mother, who lives in Munich, did that very thing with a rental property...

 

Has she moved out yet...?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/3/2019, 10:35:44, wien4ever said:

 

How hard is it to do? I'm not going to be doing it, but I've always been curious. Is it just pulling away the plaster, pulling out the old lines and putting in the new ones, or are you having to thread things blindly through walls? Sorry, I am a complete newb.

Do you know which diameter of wire to place? Do you know how to dimension mainboard switches? 

Do you know how to wire a three phase installation?

Be amateur in your hobbies, with electricity you could easily get electrocuted or worst, start a fire that kills non-idiots. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Do you know which diameter of wire to place? Do you know how to dimension mainboard switches? 

Do you know how to wire a three phase installation?

Be amateur in your hobbies, with electricity you could easily get electrocuted or worst, start a fire that kills non-idiots. 

 

Looking back at my post I think it sounded like I wanted to do it myself. I did not intend it to come across that way - I meant the question more like "how is it done?"  Does the electrician snake the wires through or does he have to bash the walls? I know in the US sometimes they can just "snake" the wires through the wall.  I managed to find some youtube videos showing some German electrician bashing the walls to get the wires out. That was basically my question.

 

You guys really like to assume the worst in people :D

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, wien4ever said:

Does the electrician snake the wires through or does he have to bash the walls? I know in the US sometimes they can just "snake" the wires through the wall.  I managed to find some youtube videos showing some German electrician bashing the walls to get the wires out. That was basically my question.

You can not snake wires through brick walls. So it depends on the inner structure of the wall. In Europe, most walls are made of bricks, so you have to bash a path.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wien4ever

Sorry for late reply.  Cables have to be in zones  15 to 45cm from top of ceiling / bottom of floor.  Zone is 10cm to 30cm I think, around doors and window frames.  See I think it is "selbst.de" website.  There are codes for where light and wall switches should be too.  105cm to centres from floor for a light switch, and must be in same zone channels as cable running to it.

 

Re-wiring is a straight forward process, as long as the old cables were within the correct zones.  I have been re-wiring a house with old cables.  Some old cables were in ok zones, some not.  You either remove old cable and replace with new cable / switches etc.  Or cut a new channel in correct zone, then put cable in.  

 

No need to re-wire unless cables are really old and you can see lights flickering on their own, or also unless cables are aluminium and not in correct zones.

 

1.5mm x nymj 3 for lighting circuits.

2.5mm x nymj 3 for main steckdose circuits.

 

I have seen houses with steckdose and lighting schalter switches combined.  Seems like totally lunacy.  One of those "it's always been like that, so we do it like that here".

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now