Einbürgerung/Citizenship process Prenzlau berg/Pankow

54 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, katheliz said:

When Vierling was born, in early 1978, one of my roommates had just had her second child with her Turkish gentleman friend. 'Well,' she said, 'Now we can get married.  If we married before I had a child, the child wouldn't be German.'  

Oops - this was in mid-1973.  Typo.

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Hello Everyone!

 

I recently learned about this thread and I was wondering if anyone has had any luck completing his/her Einbürgerung process in Pankow during the past weeks and months.

 

My wife and I initiated the process in January 2019 after getting an appointment through the online system this time last year (we were lucky because most likely someone cancelled last minute). In the initial appointment we had a quick chat with the Beamter. She first checked our passports to make sure we first moved to Germany around 8 years ago (we moved in March 2011) and she then listed the required documentation (e.g. German language certificates, translated birth/wedding certificates, Einbürgerungstest certificate, work contract, rental contract, etc.).

 

As some of you mentioned before, a participant's certificate will not do to prove that you have the required language skills even if it is from a Berliner VHS (e.g. my wife completed a B2 to C1 bridge course but this was not accepted). In our experience the Beamter was really polite but she will follow the handbook word by word (and as someone else said before, I would play along with her since she is the one in charge of handling our applications).

 

We had a second appointment in June 2019 where we officially submitted the forms and all supporting documentation (we took our chances as we booked an appointment when we found one free, we were still waiting for the German language certificates and we received them just 3 days before the appointment). The younger Guy validated that everything was completed and the Beamter processed our payments. She also mentioned that in case of any problems we would hear from them within 30 days... and on day 29 they sent a letter to request copies of my wife's old work contracts (this was "funny" since she is currently not working and she applied as my "dependent").

 

The most stressful part of having received this letter was (can you guess?) getting a new appointment through the online system but again we were lucky since we found one for 2 weeks later (someone may have cancelled last minute again... but we had to be checking the system all the time for about a week).

 

We submitted copies of the old work contracts and asked why was this required. The Beamter said that showing that my wife had also worked would make for a better application.

 

After that no news whatsoever. In the meantime my wife and I had a Baby (August) and she was given German citizenship at birth based on the rule that at least one of the parents is a permanent resident and has been in the country for more than 8 years. We want to think that if the Baby got it we may ultimately get it.

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On 9/22/2019, 3:20:40, PandaMunich said:

 

That's exactly what you're doing - no German spouse, no German citizenship for you after just 3 years.

 

 

Are you sure you're a lawyer yourself?

Did you graduate one of the accredited universities listed in the Anabin database or in here and then pass the bar examination in Brazil?

 

Yes, I'm a lawyer in Brazil since 2004, you can find me on the Brazilian BAR website search and my university is the biggest of the country and is listed in the Anabin database.

 

...and since this post, I also became a lawyer in Portugal... AND GERMANY! Thanks to EURaG law.

But I'd never be my own client. All lawyers know this rule. I have friends who can solve it in a snap, if I want to.

 

On 9/22/2019, 3:20:40, PandaMunich said:

Because one of the first things lawyers learn is Subsumption, i.e. looking whether all the conditions set down in a clause of the law match with your own case facts, and only if you fulfill all the conditions set down by the law does that clause of the law apply to you.

 

So let's have a look at the law, the Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz:  https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stag/index.html

To be exact, let's look at §8 and §9 of the Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz, in its English translation, to make things easier for you.

 

As the:

  1. spouse (yes, you're a spouse, you prove it with the marriage certificate) 
  2. of a German (so yes, your husband has to prove his "German-ness", he does that with the patrilinear birth certificates reaching back to 1914), and
  3. also fulfilling a few other conditions (which guess what, you also have to prove!)

you are asking for an Ermessenseinbürgerung ("Ermessen" means discretionary, i.e. the state can give it to you, or not, you have no legal claim to German citizenship) in accordance with §9 (1) StAG in conjunction with §8 StAG:

 

  • Section 9
    [Naturalization of spouses or life partners of Germans]

    (1) Spouses or life partners of Germans should be naturalized in keeping with the requirements set out in Section 8, if

    1.  they lose or give up their previous citizenship or a ground exists for accepting multiple nationality pursuant to Section 12 and

    2.  it is ensured that they will conform to the German way of life,

    unless they do not have sufficient command of the German language (Section 10 (1), first sentence, no. 6 and (4)) and do not fulfil any condition that would justify an exception under Section 10 (6).

    (2) The provision pursuant to subsection 1 shall also apply if naturalization is applied for within one year of the German spouse's death or of a ruling dissolving the marriage becoming final and the applicant is entitled to custody of a child issuing from the marriage who already possesses German citizenship.

  • Section 8
    [Discretionary naturalization]

    (1) A foreigner who is legally ordinarily resident in Germany may be naturalized upon application provided that he or she

    1.  possesses legal capacity pursuant to Section 37 (1), first sentence, or has a legal representative,

    2.  has not been sentenced for an unlawful act and is not subject to any court order imposing a measure of reform and prevention due to a lack of criminal capacity,

    3.  has found a dwelling of his or her own or accommodation and

    4.  is able to support himself or herself and his or her dependants.

    (2) The requirements stipulated in subsection 1, first sentence,2 nos. 2 and 4 may be waived on grounds of public interest or in order to avoid special hardship.

 

 

 

This means that you do not yet have a legal claim to German citizenship, which would be the Anspruchseinbürgerung ("Anspruch" means legal claim) in accordance with §10 StAG, which can only happen:

  1. after at least 6 years of residence
  2. and a few other conditions

as you can read up in here:

  • Section 10
    [Entitlement to naturalization; derivative naturalization of spouses and minor children]

    (1) A foreigner who has been legally ordinarily resident in Germany for eight years and possesses legal capacity pursuant to Section 37 (1), first sentence, or has a legal representative shall be naturalized upon application if he or she

    1.  confirms his or her commitment to the free democratic constitutional system enshrined in the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany and declares that he or she does not pursue or support and has never pursued or supported any activities

    a)  aimed at subverting the free democratic constitutional system, the existence or security of the Federation or a Land or

    b)  aimed at illegally impeding the constitutional bodies of the Federation or a Land or the members of said bodies in discharging their duties or

    c)  any activities which jeopardize foreign interests of the Federal Republic of Germany through the use of violence or preparatory actions for the use of violence,

    or credibly asserts that he or she has distanced him- or herself from the former pursuit or support of such activities,

    2.  has been granted a permanent right of residence or as a national of Switzerland or as a family member of a national of Switzerland possesses a residence permit on the basis of the Agreement of 21 June 1999 between the European Community and its Member States on the one hand and the Swiss Confederation on the other hand on the free movement of persons or possesses an EU Blue Card or a residence permit for purposes other than those specified in Sections 16, 17, 17a, 20, 22, 23 (1), 23a, 24 and 25 (3) to (5) of the Residence Act,

    3.  is able to ensure his or her own subsistence and that of his or her dependants without recourse to benefits in accordance with Book Two or Book Twelve of the Social Code, or if recourse to such benefits is due to conditions beyond his or her control,

    4.  gives up or loses his or her previous citizenship,

    5.  has not been sentenced for an unlawful act and is not subject to any court order imposing a measure of reform and prevention due to a lack of criminal capacity,

    6.  has a sufficient command of the German language, and

    7.  possesses knowledge of the legal system, society and living conditions in the Federal Republic of Germany.

    The conditions under the first sentence, nos. 1 and 7 do not apply to foreigners who do not have legal capacity pursuant to Section 37 (1), first sentence.

    (2) The foreigner's spouse and minor children may be naturalized together with the foreigner in accordance with subsection 1, irrespective of whether they have been lawfully resident in Germany for eight years.

    (3) Upon a foreigner confirming successful attendance of an integration course by presenting a certificate issued by the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees (BMAF), the qualifying period stipulated in subsection 1 shall be reduced to seven years. This qualifying period may be reduced to six years if the foreigner has made outstanding efforts at integration, especially if he or she can demonstrate a command of the German language which exceeds the requirements under subsection 1, first sentence, no. 6.

    (4) The conditions specified in subsection 1, first sentence, no. 6 shall be fulfilled if the foreigner passes the oral and written language examinations leading to the Zertifikat Deutsch (equivalent of level B 1 in the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages). Where a minor child is under 16 years of age at the time of naturalization the conditions of subsection 1, first sentence, no. 6 shall be fulfilled if the child demonstrates age-appropriate language skills.

    (5) As a rule, the conditions specified in subsection 1, first sentence, no. 7 shall be fulfilled if the foreigner has passed the naturalization test. To prepare for the test, foreigners may participate in voluntary integration courses.

    (6) The requirements of subsection 1, first sentence, nos. 6 and 7 shall be waived if the foreigner is unable to fulfil them on account of a physical, mental or psychological illness or disability or on account of his or her age.

    (7) The Federal Ministry of the Interior shall be authorized, without the need for approval by the Bundesrat, to issue ordinances defining the test and certification requirements as well as the basic structure and contents of the naturalization courses under subsection 5, based on the contents of the orientation course under Section 43 (3), first sentence, of the Residence Act.

 

So you will have to follow the law and bring proof that you fulfill all the conditions set down in §§8, 9 StAG if you want German citizenship after just 3 years in Germany.

 

Or just do the integration course, get engaged in a German Verein (to show your outstanding efforts at integration) and get German citizenship on your own merit after 6 years at the earliest.

 

 

 

 

...(yawn) I got all those documents. It all came down to my husband if it was too much for him that he had to prove his German nationality since 1914 and although he was very p*ssed, he said it was ok with it, so we left the lawyer option on the side for now.

 

In fact I have delivered documents for citizenship either by the 3 years of marriage/residency AND 6 years of residency, plus Master's degree from a German school, Einbürgerungstest, etc. Now it's all down to their famous slow processing of the requests. I just noticed they finally got the 2 extra Beamter they promised a while ago.

https://www.berlin.de/ba-pankow/politik-und-verwaltung/aemter/amt-fuer-buergerdienste/standesamt/einbuergerungen/artikel.216454.php

Corona probably slowed everything even more, but has anyone had experience with them now that they have doubled the workforce?

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I'd suggest hiring an immigration lawyer to do this for you. It makes everything less stressful and authorities also process things quicker when they receive it from lawyers. They assume the lawyer has gone through the first check-list and its true. A laywer will never submit an application on behaf of a client if its not full and in full compliance with the expectations from the authorities. Well a good lawyer won't. Not all lawywers are the same I guess. 

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19 hours ago, Berlinoooo said:

I'd suggest hiring an immigration lawyer to do this for you. It makes everything less stressful and authorities also process things quicker when they receive it from lawyers.

 

Why do you think that applications filed by lawyers are given priority? I've been told by more than one person actually processing applications in Germany that having a lawyer does not result in special treatment. 

 

19 hours ago, Berlinoooo said:

They assume the lawyer has gone through the first check-list and its true.

 

The lawyer's job is to submit documentation that puts the application in the best light possible. 

 

19 hours ago, Berlinoooo said:

A laywer will never submit an application on behaf of a client if its not full and in full compliance with the expectations from the authorities.

 

:blink: That statement is so far from reality that I don't know where to start. I can tell you from personal experience from the time I was working for an immigration lawyer that there is a huge difference between de jure and de facto and lawyers will submit applications on behalf of clients that don't meet all the requirements and hope the authorities don't notice.

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On 6/16/2020, 2:02:36, Berlinoooo said:

I'd suggest hiring an immigration lawyer to do this for you. It makes everything less stressful and authorities also process things quicker when they receive it from lawyers. They assume the lawyer has gone through the first check-list and its true. A laywer will never submit an application on behaf of a client if its not full and in full compliance with the expectations from the authorities. Well a good lawyer won't. Not all lawywers are the same I guess. 

 

Actually this is what a few lawyer friends of mine that work with citizenship requests have said. The Beamter are simply terrified of having a "lawyered-up case" under their pile*. The Standesamt/Bürgeramt hate having to deal with lawyers and will definitely put yours always on top of their piles. If you wanna really fast track and you've already submitted everything (and from now on they'll just repeat previous documents because they themselves are stalling your request for YET another year, so another tax declaration, etc...), get a lawyer in it. The first thing the lawyer will do is request to see your application (including THEIR documents on it). That's when things take off and your application suddenly gets accepted much sooner than expected. I'll give it a few months. if by the ned of the year they're asking me for all the tax and income stuff AGAIN, it will be delivered by a lawyer.

 

*The friend of mine who would be my lawyer just happened to have been a worker in a German consulate abroad a while ago. She knows how they can be when dealing with applications and the reason you get the feeling each case worker applies a different law out of their own minds is because they're very poorly trained.

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On 20.6.2020, 23:48:13, CaptainKurt said:

 

Actually this is what a few lawyer friends of mine that work with citizenship requests have said. The Beamter are simply terrified of having a "lawyered-up case" under their pile*. The Standesamt/Bürgeramt hate having to deal with lawyers and will definitely put yours always on top of their piles.

 

A classic case of he said, she said. The lawyers think that the Beamte are scared of them and the Beamte claim that many lawyers are idiots. The truth is somewhere in between and varies by region. 

 

On 20.6.2020, 23:48:13, CaptainKurt said:

*The friend of mine who would be my lawyer just happened to have been a worker in a German consulate abroad a while ago. She knows how they can be when dealing with applications and the reason you get the feeling each case worker applies a different law out of their own minds is because they're very poorly trained.

 

Again training varies by region.

 

I took a professional development course given by the head of the largest citizenship office in Germany and he knew all the laws inside out and backwards and I'm sure that his people are better trained that your lawyer friends (and taking the course was a much better investment for me than consulting a lawyer). On the other hand, here in Berlin every Bezirk has their own citizenship office and interpret the rules differently (but Berlin is famous for coming up with their own interpretations of federal laws).

 

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3 hours ago, engelchen said:

...

 

I took a professional development course given by the head of the largest citizenship office in Germany and he knew all the laws inside out and backwards and I'm sure that his people are better trained that your lawyer friends (and taking the course was a much better investment for me than consulting a lawyer). On the other hand, here in Berlin every Bezirk has their own citizenship office and interpret the rules differently (but Berlin is famous for coming up with their own interpretations of federal laws).

 

So in summary: Hiring a lawyer does not help.

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3 hours ago, kapil354 said:

So in summary: Hiring a lawyer does not help.

 

That is not what I said, but rather it depends on a various factors and in certain cases it can make sense.

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Shall I hire or not hire one...

 

I do not want to piss off the beamterin

 

But I want a faster response.

 

Please guide me... oh gods of tt

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On 26.6.2020, 10:06:40, engelchen said:

 

A classic case of he said, she said. The lawyers think that the Beamte are scared of them and the Beamte claim that many lawyers are idiots. The truth is somewhere in between and varies by region. 
 

 

not so much he said, she said. More like they all said and I’ve seen it with my own eyes. I’m waiting for my application to complete 6 months without an answer to discuss my options with my lawyer. 

 

 

On 26.6.2020, 10:06:40, engelchen said:

 

 

Again training varies by region.

 

I took a professional development course given by the head of the largest citizenship office in Germany and he knew all the laws inside out and backwards and I'm sure that his people are better trained that your lawyer friends (and taking the course was a much better investment for me than consulting a lawyer). On the other hand, here in Berlin every Bezirk has their own citizenship office and interpret the rules differently (but Berlin is famous for coming up with their own interpretations of federal laws).

 


the topic is about Standesamt Pankow where the unbelievable passes as truth. Come take a tour of the place and make up your mind.  It’s famously the slowest Standesamt in Berlin to process applications. 
I resurrected this post because they seem to have doubled their workforce and I wanted to know if there was already any known positive effect from it, but it seems it’s both too early to tell and people here wanna have a say, even when they don’t know the answer to a simple question. 

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7 hours ago, CaptainKurt said:

Come take a tour of the place and make up your mind.  

 

I actually live in Pankow and have already had an appointment there. 

 

7 hours ago, CaptainKurt said:

but it seems it’s both too early to tell and people here wanna have a say, even when they don’t know the answer to a simple question. 

 

Think what you will, I probably know more about the office than you.

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Three entities involved (or Amts, if you will)

- Meldeamt

- Local court

- Naturalization authority

 

For divorce papers all are pointing at each other. 
Local court is asking for ton of paper and does not recognize a non-EU divorce with apostille. 

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On 3.7.2020, 07:30:36, engelchen said:

 

 

I actually live in Pankow and have already had an appointment there. 

 

 

Think what you will, I probably know more about the office than you.


Great! Why don’t you tell us what you know about Einbürgerung in Pankow? You mentioned lots of credentials. You also said it varied a lot from Bezirk to Bezirk. Why don’t you drop some names about how things are going on there specifically?

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