Charged for the Blue Card with no success

21 posts in this topic

Hey guys

 

 

We have a problem with the auslandrbehorde in Hamburg. My wife applied to get her Blue Card after getting a raise, and although her salary is well above the threshold for jobs withshortages of candidates, they rejected the application. But that is not the problem. They asked her for the price of the card itself (100 EUR) and got her fingerprints even before sending the application to the wmployment agency. And now that the application is rejected, they refuse to return the money they charged her in advance and wrongly. The agency who is responsbile for her application at their firm has said that it is very hard to get the money back from them. I just need to know why such thing has happened and why is it so hard to pay back the wrong money they took from her?

 

any help is appreciated.

 

good day

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, wandsbekboy said:

They asked her for the price of the card itself (100 EUR) and got her fingerprints even before sending the application to the wmployment agency. And now that the application is rejected, they refuse to return the money they charged her in advance and wrongly.

 

They didn't charge "wrongly" – the 100€ you paid is not for the piece of plastic but for the application process. And the official acts are subject to charges, regardless of the outcome. 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

They didn't charge "wrongly" – the 100€ you paid is not for the piece of plastic but for the application process. And the official acts are subject to charges, regardless of the outcome. 

 

Excuse me but apparently you are wrong. This is the second time she is applying for this type of work/residence permit but the first time no charges was due. This is the first time they do like this. As far as I know, assessment of an application is free of charge, and the price is for issueing a card.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never had to pay for any permits until they were issued, meaning I went through the application process then paid when picking up the permit(s).  But I was also never denied so not sure what would have happened in that case.  The times that I had to provide fingerprints, it was done at the time I submitted my applications, not when picking up the cards.

 

but it sounds like she applied using this service at her workplace?  Did she give the money to them, or to the abh directly?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

I never had to pay for any permits until they were issued, meaning I went through the application process then paid when picking up the permit(s).  But I was also never denied so not sure what would have happened in that case.  The times that I had to provide fingerprints, it was done at the time I submitted my applications, not when picking up the cards.

 

but it sounds like she applied using this service at her workplace?  Did she give the money to them, or to the abh directly?

Thank you for your reply. Actually she applied directly at abh and they got the money there.The service is provided after the rejection to investigate about the results. It is funny how even a lawyer gives up this quickly and even before trying to ask abou the case, he/she says it is better to leave it like that.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's really weird.  I am even more confused that they generally accepted her application, then rejected it.  Even when renewing my permits it was never a slam dunk to submit the application - it always had to be "just so" on the premise that if it wasn't, it would not get final approval.

 

So I thought they screened applicants better before starting the final leg of the process.  Never heard of such a thing, honestly, but good luck!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wandsbekboy said:

 As far as I know, assessment of an application is free of charge, and the price is for issueing a card.

 

The fees are regulated by law, § 69, AufenthG, and they are not for 'issuing a card' but for "individually attributable public services":

 

"(1) 1Für individuell zurechenbare öffentliche Leistungen nach diesem Gesetz und den zur Durchführung dieses Gesetzes erlassenen Rechtsverordnungen werden Gebühren und Auslagen erhoben."

 

 

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

The fees are regulated by law, § 69, AufenthG, and they are not for 'issuing a card' but for "individually attributable public services":

 

"(1) 1Für individuell zurechenbare öffentliche Leistungen nach diesem Gesetz und den zur Durchführung dieses Gesetzes erlassenen Rechtsverordnungen werden Gebühren und Auslagen erhoben."

 

 

 

 

 

I can confirm that. My blue card application was made in March 2017, and I had to pay the fee at the time of the application. It was 110 € last year, how come it can be 100 € this year? Did they make a discount??

 

Anyway, this year I made the application for the Niederlassungserlaubnis, and when I first communicated with them, they asked me to send all the documents by email, and pay half of the fee in order for them to check my documents, and see if it is worth giving an appointment. The rest is paid during the appointment. It was at the Hamburg Welcome Center (Bezirksamt Mitte).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TurMech said:

 

I can confirm that. My blue card application was made in March 2017, and I had to pay the fee at the time of the application. It was 110 € last year, how come it can be 100 € this year? Did they make a discount??

 

Actually the local authorities have some leeway, under (5) the maximum amounts are stated – "The fees specified in the Ordinance may not exceed the following maximum rates" and the max for the Blue Card is 140€.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wandsbekboy said:

Thank you for your reply. Actually she applied directly at abh and they got the money there.The service is provided after the rejection to investigate about the results. It is funny how even a lawyer gives up this quickly and even before trying to ask abou the case, he/she says it is better to leave it like that.

 

I also don't get this part. How come they reject an applicant who satisfies the requirements (Salary & field of work) ?

And I thought that once one comes to the point of getting the fingerprints scanned, the rest is a formality.

 

Did the lawyer only proposed to leave it like that without any additional explanation? Why leave it like that??

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the lawyer is from that service that his wife's employer offers, mentioned in the first post.

 

so apparently each office does it differently wrt to payment?  all, half or none up front?

 

Then again, I haven't had to visit KVR since 2016.  No idea what they are doing now.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The lawyer is part of the firm that has been negotiating with abh for reasoning over their decision. Actually, regarding the decision, in jobs with shortages of employment, the salary level of over 40,000 EUR is just a necessity, not a reason to accept the application. The employment agency has recently rejected many applications based on some stats over the average salary for a ceratin position among the employees all over the country. So for instance for a software developer, although being part of occupations with shortages of employees, tehy believe the salary should be around 60k-65k and applicants with salary of around 50000 and even more will be rejected too, and that is funny when you know with a job offer of over 51,800 no agrrement from employment agency is required.

Yet, The laywers told my wife that this is really strange (meaning that this should not happen, and even more strange, taking the fingerprints before an answer) but it is not worth trying to ask for a reimburesement.

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TurMech said:

 

I can confirm that. My blue card application was made in March 2017, and I had to pay the fee at the time of the application. It was 110 € last year, how come it can be 100 € this year? Did they make a discount??

 

Anyway, this year I made the application for the Niederlassungserlaubnis, and when I first communicated with them, they asked me to send all the documents by email, and pay half of the fee in order for them to check my documents, and see if it is worth giving an appointment. The rest is paid during the appointment. It was at the Hamburg Welcome Center (Bezirksamt Mitte).

Apparently this is not a fixed amount but should not be over 140 EUR. Still really strange.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wandsbekboy said:

The lawyer is part of the firm that has been negotiating with abh for reasoning over their decision. Actually, regarding the decision, in jobs with shortages of employment, the salary level of over 40,000 EUR is just a necessity, not a reason to accept the application. The employment agency has recently rejected many applications based on some stats over the average salary for a ceratin position among the employees all over the country. So for instance for a software developer, although being part of occupations with shortages of employees, tehy believe the salary should be around 60k-65k and applicants with salary of around 50000 and even more will be rejected too, and that is funny when you know with a job offer of over 51,800 no agrrement from employment agency is required.

Yet, The laywers told my wife that this is really strange (meaning that this should not happen, and even more strange, taking the fingerprints before an answer) but it is not worth trying to ask for a reimburesement.

 

 

 

actually I find that really encouraging as they seem to be taking the threat (and fact) of wage dumping seriously!

 

if your wife is a software engineer and just finally made the pay grade to qualify for a blue card...that's just freaking wrong.  And it's only possible due to wage dumping unless she's a complete fresher.  

 

but that is an explanation I didn't suspect.  thanks for the detail.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, wandsbekboy said:

Actually, regarding the decision, in jobs with shortages of employment, the salary level of over 40,000 EUR is just a necessity, not a reason to accept the application. The employment agency has recently rejected many applications based on some stats over the average salary for a ceratin position among the employees all over the country. So for instance for a software developer, although being part of occupations with shortages of employees, tehy believe the salary should be around 60k-65k and applicants with salary of around 50000 and even more will be rejected too, and that is funny when you know with a job offer of over 51,800 no agrrement from employment agency is required.

 

This is very interesting, and i believe this is the first time this information is shared on TT (sorry if i missed it before).

 

Is it the lawyer, who shared the information that, the employment agency rejected many applications recently? I wonder if the figures are open for public somewhere, as well as the stats for the new salary acceptance criteria.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, TurMech said:

This is very interesting, and i believe this is the first time this information is shared on TT (sorry if i missed it before).

 

Is it the lawyer, who shared the information that, the employment agency rejected many applications recently? I wonder if the figures are open for public somewhere, as well as the stats for the new salary acceptance criteria.

 

This info has been discussed on TT several times before in quite some detail. Not your fault you missed it - its been quite a while since it was last shared.

 

Unfortunately, because the nature of the TT beast allows newbies and other occasional users to repeat similar questions on zigtausend different threads, many threads containing important facts and factors which affect those same folks tend to get buried in the depths of the TT archives.

===============0

 

The BfA is the responsible authority for, and generator of, official German employment market statistics for domestic governmental, EU and international inter-governmental use. The BfA inherited this statutory duty from the Arbeitsamt which had fulfilled it since the early 1950s.

 

The figures and stats are available to the public, albeit the BfA website's UI does predicate a certain degree of patience and determination to find some of them.

 

Many of them are typical of academic statisticians reports which, for the average journo or lay reader, may not be that easy to decipher until one has at least mastered the ILO and BfA vocabulary used in them.

 

Tip - look first in the index of the reports for the word Glossar or Glossary where you'll find the 'fachchinesische' definitions used and which is usually toward the end of the PDFs.

 

They publish monthly stats in multiple languages along with commentaries on regional and national changes to the 'whitelist' of jobs considered to be affected by shortages. They also publish detailed info on annual adjustments to such factors as specific ILO job classification numbers, acceptable level and type of qualifications iaw ILO job classifications and variables to income thresholds by region according to dynamic changes in the German market demand and supply situation.

 

Here are a few links which might, (I've not used them myself for several years), help get you on the trail of their latest monthly and annual reports.

 

Labour Market Reports - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <English PDFs

Arbeitsmarktberichte - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <German PDFs

Akademiker - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <Example stats for a specific ILO classification

Fachkräftebedarf und Stellen - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <Skill requirements v job offers

Veröffentlichungen - www.arbeitsagentur.de <Lists of publications

Weisungen Übergreifendes - www.arbeitsagentur.de <Internal instructions - you can search for dynamic changes re these themes there. 

KldB 2010 - statistik.arbeitsagentur.de <re ILO job classifications in German officialese - check for the latest year (2017)

 

Good luck with your research!

 

2B

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, lisa13 said:

 

actually I find that really encouraging as they seem to be taking the threat (and fact) of wage dumping seriously!

 

if your wife is a software engineer and just finally made the pay grade to qualify for a blue card...that's just freaking wrong.  And it's only possible due to wage dumping unless she's a complete fresher.  

 

but that is an explanation I didn't suspect.  thanks for the detail.

 

I think that this together with the post of @2B_orNot2B which (as normal) is full of information makes very good points and I am also happy to see this taking place.  I could not understand how IT was on the list to allow lower wages in the first place and it is a relatively well paying profession. 

 

 

However, in this case the OPs wife already has the job and hence must have a Visa and she has just crossed the threshold for the bluecard.  So then is this case I assume that the main advantage of rejecting the application is because the number of blue cards is limited, so then by rejecting this then a blue card could be used by somebody else outside of the country to get a job in Germany.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is there a limit on the number of bluecards issued?  I've never heard that before. 

 

If that is the rationale for the rejection, that's not really cool as the bluecard offers lasting advantages over other types of permits and the idea that starting on a different type of permit being counted *against* the applicant who's been here for some time and is working their way up (in a proven way!) is not very fair at all.  It's not just about having a work/residence permit, but the many perks that go with it.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 12.10.2018, 16:23:57, wandsbekboy said:

 Actually, regarding the decision, in jobs with shortages of employment, the salary level of over 40,000 EUR is just a necessity, not a reason to accept the application.

 

Yes, however, until now they seem to have unfortunately just been rubber stamping applications without properly evaluating them.

 

On 12.10.2018, 16:23:57, wandsbekboy said:

The employment agency has recently rejected many applications based on some stats over the average salary for a ceratin position among the employees all over the country.

 

Finally! That is excellent news! Is it only Hamburg that has started to correctly apply the law?

 

On 13.10.2018, 13:04:27, lisa13 said:

is there a limit on the number of bluecards issued?  I've never heard that before. 

 

There is no limit on the number of Blue Cards.

 

On 13.10.2018, 13:04:27, lisa13 said:

If that is the rationale for the rejection, that's not really cool as the bluecard offers lasting advantages over other types of permits and the idea that starting on a different type of permit being counted *against* the applicant who's been here for some time and is working their way up (in a proven way!) is not very fair at all.  It's not just about having a work/residence permit, but the many perks that go with it.

 

@lisa13

 

I agree that the Blue Card offers a few advantages over a regular work permit, however, Blue Cards are actually meant to entice skilled foreign workers to move here and not cheap foreign workers willing to accept dumping wages. A few years ago 42k was the average entry level salary for recent grads (I suspect that it is now lower) and I don't see why an experienced foreign engineer working for 42k should receive a Blue Card.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now