Churchill is the new Hitler

28 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, Tim Hortons Man said:

Well it didn't take too long for the SJWs to take down the greatest statesmen of the 20th century.

 

Although I don't relate with the Hitler comparison, for me Churchill is one of the most overrated characters of the 20th century.

 

During WW1, as  First Lord of the Admiralty , he devised an "invasion" of Turkey who ended up in disaster. He got demoted for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign

 

In WW2, in the same position, he was part of the pathetic English and French mini invasion of Germany and later defeat. As PM, he lead the country months away from surrender and was saved by the entry of America in the war.

 

His own country booted him out 2 months after the war, with a sounding defeat of 61% to 30%.

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Although I don't relate with the Hitler comparison as well, I'm pretty sure that f.ex for Indians the comparison could make sense.

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Both may easily be true.   Stalin led the outcome of World War II as much as Churchill (and others).   Lead another nation to extraordinary extremes and sacrifice to defeat Nazism.  Did that particular job when the world needed it.   We certainly don't see him as an untouchable hero who is beyond criticism.   Many people who bang on about "social justice warriors" would (correctly) see a different truth about one of the other men who led the Allies to victory.  

 

I always find it very surprising that after being one of the Allied leaders who won that he was booted out of office not long later.   It's not like there was even time to reflect, or dismantle a reputation (as with Stalin later), and you might have though euphoria would have the opposite effect.  There's gratitude for you. 

 

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In Mongolia, they have statues to Genghis Khan, who by some estimates was the bloodiest single warlord with ca. 35 million dead over a century and a half directly related to his and his son's conquests. But in Mongolia, he's just yer local boy. Tamerlane was a bloody monster, but he's the local famous dude in Uzbekistan (a region which is still figuring out what exactly makes a statue-worthy hero, but I digress...)

 

Iconoclasm is nothing new, and in this righteous, sensitive and global era it's rather hard to please everyone. Certainly, knee-jerk judging of historical figures with today's morals is foolish. Damning a 19/20th century statesman at the height of the imperial era for being just that is, well... so what? He was a jerk or worse by today's standards? K. He still said a few memorable things at a dark time. 

 

In Canada there was some ballyhoo about an erstwhile nation-builder Eggerton Ryerson. He was (to ask SJWs) theoretically responsible for the residential school system, although he actually died before the first ever opened. He was an ecumenical-minded Methodist pastor at a time when both Catholics and Anglicans scorned, well, each other and everyone else really. Ryerson believed in secular, universal, 'free' state education (which at the time was strictly religious), for boys and girls, and regardless of race/origins. Sounds noble, doesn't it?


Among other educational reforms that followed from his ideas, residential schools were soon opened (i.e. free education in rural areas for those who would otherwise never have it -- mostly but not strictly natives), he is as equally blamed as the kiddy-diddlers and the violent who abused their power and the isolation of residential schools. English (or French) was violently enforced, native languages were banned, violent punishments were standard, all as part of integration techniques. Yes, horrible I agree, but this was a move away from explicit extermination and exclusion. Of course, it all smacks of colonialism, but those were the days. What was novel was free education (which was handed over to religious 'charitable' organizations in Canada's many remote areas -- the secularism took several more decades to filter in), including for natives. But the SJW types will cry bloody imperialism. Well, yes, that too. It's not as if 19th century white folks had it much better. My parents had corporal punishment and humiliation 'tactics' in schools even in the 1960s in urban Canada. And imperial/national themes were de rigueur in all schooling of the day.

 

The real issue is that people don't fully know their history.

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23 minutes ago, john g. said:

Well, even Ghandi looked down on black Africans...the great man himself.

Superiority/inferiority complexes are a part of human history and have always been so. Unfortunately...

 

42 minutes ago, Alexnf said:

Although I don't relate with the Hitler comparison as well, I'm pretty sure that f.ex for Indians the comparison could make sense.

 

If one starts judging past characters by modern standards almost everyone was a horrible person. I hope we will also be seen as horrible people by the future generations, because that means civilisation is improving.

 

 

1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

His own country booted him out 2 months after the war, with a sounding defeat of 61% to 30%.

 

And then elected him a few years later. Churchill was a great motivator for the wartime. But he was pretty much a warmonger and a horrible leader in peacetime (Levant Crisis, Kenya, Malaysia, operation unthinkable, etc)

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The important thing is that the right-wingers have something new to get their panties in a twist about.

 

Won't anyone ever think of the poor, oppressed, white (Christian) males?

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For what it´s worth, mý Yorkshire and  REALLY  working class mum visited me in Hamburg about 20 years ago and  we were chatting with some older German friends of mine at their house and who, trying to be charming, offered her and my Auntie Alwyn a cup of Winston Churchill tea. 

My mum: " fucking hell, Is that what this tea is called ?  I fucking hate that war-mongering bastard. ";)My friends were really surprised (so was I ..I´d never heard her talk about Churchill before ).

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4 hours ago, El Jeffo said:

The important thing is that the right-wingers have something new to get their panties in a twist about.

 

Won't anyone ever think of the poor, oppressed, white (Christian) males?

As a liberal human, I reckon - yep - solidarity with plenty of ANY TRULY oppressed --whether white  or not so white Christian males eg in Egypt and getting slaughtered by fanatical extremists or  female slaves in a posh household in Kuwait. Or whatever. Fuck this Left or Right shit.

Humanity--not this crap from our 70´s upbringing. 

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Churchill was an inspiiration to all people who wanted to fight against tyranny. Britian fought alone against Hitler during World War 2 until the USA reluctantlly joined in the fight in 1942. Without Churchill, all Europe, including the UK (and Portugal Mike Melga!) would be speaking German as a mother tongue.

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5 minutes ago, LukeSkywalker said:

Russia fought against Hitler too, you know.

 

Indeed...

 

 

 

Quote

Do you think that the Russians want war? These are the parents of children who died in the last one Do you think that it's possible, knowing their past That they'd ever consider repeating the last When 20 million were slaughtered by Nazi invasion? They died fighting on our side, you know, In a fight to defend humankind Against Nazi terror and hatred In the name of humanity, bitterly torn In the name of our children as yet to be born Before we do that which can never be undone I beg of you Think, think again, and again and again and again and again

 

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1 hour ago, Acton said:

Without Churchill, all Europe, including the UK (and Portugal Mike Melga!) would be speaking German as a mother tongue.

But do you know how many of us English speakers in Germany still can't speak much German after decade or two in the country??

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57 minutes ago, Acton said:

Churchill was an inspiiration to all people who wanted to fight against tyranny. Britian fought alone against Hitler during World War 2 until the USA reluctantlly joined in the fight in 1942. Without Churchill, all Europe, including the UK (and Portugal Mike Melga!) would be speaking German as a mother tongue.

 

It's an often overlooked fact that the USA became involved in the war against Germany because Hitler declared war on them. Churchill's fear had been that the War would take place in the two distinct spheres and the USA would fight solely in the Pacific against Japan after Perl Harbour. Hitler's rash decision ensured this would not happen.

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"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

 

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