Gender neutral toilets.

177 posts in this topic

@fraufruit Right on! I do give all these fellas credit for trying to have a conversation about this that doesn't center on "eww" and "oww".

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9 minutes ago, AlexTr said:

@fraufruit Right on! I do give all these fellas credit for trying to have a conversation about this that doesn't center on "eww" and "oww".

 

and there it is. You just can’t have a normal conversation without your condescension showing. 

 

Either you weren’t always like this or I truly missed it until relatively recently. 

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@A.N.Other As much as you chide me about being too sensitive, I have to turn that back around on you. That was a sincere expression of genuine happiness to see an intelligent conversation about this unfold. I am sorry it made you feel condescended to. That was not at all my feeling when I typed it. I was genuinely pleased.

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Another issue in many places around the world is the state of the toilets themselves. Hereabouts, most toilets at bus stations, in restaurants, tavernas etc are basically so unhygienic...nobody in their right mind feels good about going into them.

In our village there are three tavernas at the square and the foreigners (especially the women ) avoid two of the tavernas because the toilets are basically disgusting and are unisex theoretically. The third one is ok - the owner has one for men and one for women but nobody minds after a certain hour which one people are going into anyway.

This owner caters for the expat crowd - he knows the womenfolk go to his place because it´s more hygienic (and decent music..sometimes...and better food...sometimes ).

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17 minutes ago, AlexTr said:

@A.N.Other As much as you chide me about being too sensitive, I have to turn that back around on you. That was a sincere expression of genuine happiness to see an intelligent conversation about this unfold. I am sorry it made you feel condescended to. That was not at all my feeling when I typed it. I was genuinely pleased.

 

Then disregard. It was the “trying to have a conversation”, as if I have to struggle to do so...

 

Never mind. 

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12 minutes ago, john g. said:

Another issue in many places around the world is the state of the toilets themselves.

 

Exactly.

 

Everyone is demanding respect but in fact offer no respect to others or indeed their surroundings.

 

All deserve to maintain their dignity, whatever that personally or culturally means. These sloppy solutions being suggested benefit no one in the end.

 

We need to go back to the public space drawing board. What are our first principles now, not what they were then and move on.

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1 hour ago, A.N.Other said:

 

I understand that. It was just hard for me to get my head around. You became a woman to date women?

 

No, she became a woman because she wanted or needed to be a woman. That might entail wanting to be accepted as a woman in society, having a woman's body, not having a man's body etc. Has really nothing to do with who she wanted to date.

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34 minutes ago, A.N.Other said:

 

Then disregard. It was the “trying to have a conversation”, as if I have to struggle to do so...

 

Never mind. 

 

No, I totally get your point and I'll try to do better. I was trying to be funny and it flopped. You don't have to suck up feeling badly. I should have been more artful.

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It’s all good. 

 

Perhaps I should start over and resume assuming the best. 

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I had a transgender workmate who identifies as female and used the toilet for women. Then my workmate decided to identify as bisexual and started dressing as male because he said there are more men available for bisexual men than for transgender women. So he then shifts from using women’s toilet to using the toilet for men.  

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Well, I really don't get the concern about gendered toilets as they tend to have walls. Urinals are a different matter because of potential visibility, but all hetero men share the urinal area at one point or another with gay men who might look, and, only in my personal experience of course, many men in Germany don't mind peeing under the blue sky where anyone could see, so, I don't get the problem at all.

 

There are creeps everywhere and you're more likely to be caught by some hidden camera than to have someone peer over a stall wall.

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16 hours ago, French bean said:

30 second search on the internet produced this:

 

https://thefederalist.com/2018/07/24/trans-activists-threats-execute-women-sure-dont-look-like-social-justice/

 

in particular:

 

Women have raised concerns in meetings across the UK about how this would affect all single-sex accommodations, including prisons, domestic violence refuges, women-only recreational facilities, homeless shelters, and the privacy and safety of female patients in some medical settings. Gender activists say it’s “violent” to voice these concerns, and to say aloud that male people can’t be women.

 

Attendees and speakers at these meetings have been intimidated, assaulted, had their employment threatened, been kicked off of their political party rolls, been subjected to police inquest and disciplinary hearings for making statements of biological fact, and had a recent bomb threat made against one of their meetings. The “violence” of women’s recognition of biological sex is invoked to excuse this as a “proportionate response” from transgender people.

 

So you found one instance of radical feminist nutters fighting with some radical transgender rights nutters and think that has some general value?  Do you realize that all of those links (and the nutters on Mumsnet) are all the same small group of people?

 

"Women" have raised concerns?  Which women? How many women?  Are their fears justified? 

 

The vast vast majority of people have never encountered a real problem.  Just imagined problems goaded on by media.  Even if you have encountered a transgendered person in your bathroom, you probably never noticed.  The few actual problems that have occured are blown up by media reports to be much much more than they actually were. (No, the transgendered woman did not rape four women in prison - she sexually harassed two women while in women's prison and was then kicked out.  The other crimes attributed to this person occurred outside of prison and are not really related to the topic at hand)

 

You realize that a general rule would impact all transgender people? How would forcing transgendered men to use the women's bathroom allay the fears of these unspecified women?  When walking into a women's bathroom to see a bearded lumberjack looking person would you immediately say to yourself "Oh, this person's chromosomes are the same as mine, so this is fine" or would you rather that they used the men's bathroom like THEY would prefer?

 

In your "30 second search" (I am assuming you used terms like "Transgender" and "violence") why did you skip over all of  these results?:

https://time.com/5601227/two-black-trans-women-murders-in-dallas-anti-trans-violence/

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/amberjamieson/detroit-trans-gay-shooting-lgbt-murders

https://abcnews.go.com/US/family-demands-answers-wake-transgender-inmates-death-rikers/story?id=63621456

https://abcnews.go.com/US/outrage-wake-rampant-anti-transgender-murders-activists/story?id=63172530

Didn't fit in with your agenda? 

 

Yes, slapping a 61 year old radical feminist is not OK, however trying to "both sides" an argument in a community where people are regularly brutally murdered is a bit disingenuous.

 

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4 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

trying to "both sides" an argument in a community where people are regularly brutally murdered is a bit disingenuous.

 

More than a bit.

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3 hours ago, AlexTr said:

who might look

 

I find the "they might see my dick/vagina" thing very strange in general, specially the big difference between the attitude from men and women.   I see literally no issue if someone sees my dick.   I understand and respect that women find disturbing someone looking at her private parts, but why the big difference between women and men? why must be raised with that big difference?

 

Even at a more lighter level, women go to the beach with mini bikinis.  But if someone sees them in underwear is a big problem.   

 

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8 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Even at a more lighter level, women go to the beach with mini bikinis.  But if someone sees them in underwear is a big problem.   

 

It’s a psychological thing. In one case you are seeing something personal and private. In the other, it was meant to be displayed. 

 

Bikinis do nothing for me, but the same is not true for women’s undergarments. 

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55 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

So you found one instance of radical feminist nutters fighting with some radical transgender rights nutters and think that has some general value?  Do you realize that all of those links (and the nutters on Mumsnet) are all the same small group of people?

 

As far as I can see, the women on Mumsnet are normal everyday people.

 

57 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

(No, the transgendered woman did not rape four women in prison - she sexually harassed two women while in women's prison and was then kicked out.  The other crimes attributed to this person occurred outside of prison and are not really related to the topic at hand)

Oh, that's alright then.

 

59 minutes ago, BradinBayern said:

You realize that a general rule would impact all transgender people? How would forcing transgendered men to use the women's bathroom allay the fears of these unspecified women?  When walking into a women's bathroom to see a bearded lumberjack looking person would you immediately say to yourself "Oh, this person's chromosomes are the same as mine, so this is fine" or would you rather that they used the men's bathroom like THEY would prefer?

 

There is a general rule that is there for the majority. The question of Trans using gender specific toilets has been addressed by the building of non gender specific toilets and changing rooms but no, Trans men insist on using female toilets irrespective of the feelings of others. I want, I'll have. Or would you prefer that we rewrite the law so that everyone is allowed to act how they want without any recourse.

1 hour ago, BradinBayern said:

 

I looked at what happened in the UK, The US is in a world of its own.

 

How often have I said that the Trans community could have carried on using their gender identified toilets without anyone caring but no, a small minority has to start forcing their agenda, start insulting people, start being real shits. Transgender women (women who want to be men) don't seem to be an issue, its the men identifying as women. And why has it flared up so quickly within the last couple of years? How was a minority group been able to achieve massive funding and influence those in power. Just who is behind it and why?

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21 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

I find the "they might see my dick/vagina" thing very strange in general, specially the big difference between the attitude from men and women.   I see literally no issue if someone sees my dick.   I understand and respect that women find disturbing someone looking at her private parts, but why the big difference between women and men? why must be raised with that big difference?

 

Even at a more lighter level, women go to the beach with mini bikinis.  But if someone sees them in underwear is a big problem.   

 

 

Well, you see  men getting into trouble caught filming unsuspecting women and girls in toilets and changing rooms.    Cannot find any court cases involving a woman filming men in the loo though, except occasional transwoman.     Should anyone mind themselsves (or their children)  being secretly filmed and the man wanking later at home to the picutures?  Or should we just think, okay, each to his own?

 

Edit:  Women take their underwear down when they use to loo.  

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14 minutes ago, snowingagain said:

 

Well, you see  men getting into trouble caught filming unsuspecting women and girls in toilets and changing rooms.    Cannot find any court cases involving a woman filming men in the loo though, except occasional transwoman.

 

But this is most probably the byproduct of making women nakedness a giant taboo.   Women do not need to secretly film naked guys, the only thing they have to do is ask any guy.  Plenty will comply.

 

Quote

Should anyone mind themselsves (or their children)  being secretly filmed and the man wanking later at home to the picutures?  Or should we just think, okay, each to his own?

 

Oh the children, the easiest way to make everything dramatic.

 

Actually my views about this are probably not socially accepted by the majorities.  I think that paedophilia in some cases is an illness and it should be treated like that.   We live in the times of computers and CGIs, I think paedos should have controlled access to paedo-CGI.   As long as they are not touching or disturbing any kid it shouldn't be a problem.   But of course plenty of people will see these views as encouraging their "perversions" and don't believe some of them can't control them.

 

Quote

 

Edit:  Women take their underwear down when they use to loo.  

 

And guys take a shit wearing their undies?

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49 minutes ago, Krieg said:

I see literally no issue if someone sees my dick. 

I really do not wish to see any men's dick when they are taking a leak.

Why the difference between the sexes? Because men rarely perceive women as a threat. Doesn't work the other way round though. Do you know how threatening a dick is to a woman out of the context of being in a loving situation with someone they trust? That's why flashers are so scary. And why "harmless" groping is so distressing to women although men vastly underestimate the effect it has on them.

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@optimista "Out of context" means just about anywhere for me and I don't feel threatened by it. The feeling is more like repulsed followed by an urge to mock and shame. Anyway, we aren't talking about aggressive penile displays here; we're talking about basic bathroom habits. As for flashers, well, that's any street corner or park, in my experience, in Germany because many men here do not feel the need to confine their bladder elimination to toilets.

 

Groping is an entirely different topic and I don't think it applies here. Any touch of any person without their consent is unacceptable. 

 

 

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