Options for my wife to start a Kleine-Gewerbe with her degree

36 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

I don't follow your train of thought. Just because she doesn't require advance approval to accept a job doesn't mean she has permission to be self-employed - especially if you don't. I think you're being overly optimistic about your chances.

 

Not only that, but going into business for yourself requires interaction with German bureaucracy at any number of levels, which even people who speak the language fluently (or as a native speaker) find taxing. That's why many people find it to be not worth their effort to be a low-income self-employed person unless there's absolutely no other alternative.

 

You're in Munich, a fairly international city, and you say your wife has business and IT skills. Since she apparently isn't subject to the Vorrangprüfung, I suggest she simply look for a regular job.

 

I agree. I might be overly oprimistic about this. I will probably call them again tomorrow to check and will post here so that other people know this info.

 

Re her skills - they might be just sufficient for this kind of small business - neither of us thinks that she might get a regular job in an IT company, especially because she does not have any programming skills (HTML is not a programming language anyway).

 

But, we might later try just that and who knows...

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5 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

The truth is that for any "job" there must be a clearly defined role and work hours.  This is not just the total number of hours per week/month but the time in which you would work them, and where and how you would be expected to work (from home is fine).  Then, you would have to also do time reporting to prove that you did work these hours.  During which time you do actually have to work.

So basically you can't earn "passively" if you have a proper job, even if it is a mini-job.  You need to actively do something.

 

 

If you hire a family member then the relationship between the employer and employee will probably be under greater scrutiny than normal.  The salary for example has to be deemed appropriate for the work performed (not the qualifications you have!) and the hours the task is performed for.  So they would expect a fixed number of hours per month (this can vary slightly of course but looks suspicious if 1 month you work 40 hours and the next 2).

 

So, if you expect to be paid 450 Euros for 1 hour work per month to be a "cleaner" then this would not be considered appropriate.  Similarly, the minimum salary must also be paid.

 

Then you have to factor in the cost of employing somebody.  The employer has extra insurance, pension contributions etc to make, but this will of course vary (I see that @El Jeffo

 added more detail ).  And of course the business also has to pay for other things such as employee insurance, hiring an office, paying for equipment, hiring a tax consultant, accountant etc.  

And the company would have to make enough money to cover all of this and still make your wife a living.  It would look suspicious if you as an employee earned 450 euros every month, but she earned nothing or very little!

 

You can save some taxes etc. if hiring on a mini-job basis.  But just be aware that there are limits to what is allowed.

 

 

And don't forget.  That at the end of the year you will submit your tax return as a married couple.  So your total earnings for the both of you for the whole year will be considered.

 

I would suggest that you talk to an account to find out what is the best way of doing this, based on your projected income.  It might be better this way, or it might be better if she keeps all the income for herself.

 

Some links about benefits and things to consider;

https://www.freelancermap.de/freelancer-ratgeber/11744-arbeitsvertrag-mit-familienangehoerigen--ehefrau-anstellen

 

https://www.ruv.de/ratgeber/unternehmen/management/familienbetrieb

 

 

Thanks for the info. The best idea for me is to check asap if she is allowed to start the business at all (as discussed above).

Me working for her (mini-job) is just an idea -- but you're right - it just may not be worth it financially.

 

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5 minutes ago, java10 said:

Me working for her (mini-job) is just an idea

 

 

You do realise that you will need extra permission to work a mini-job, right? You can't get around immigration laws just because you are working for your wife (your work permit is bound to your company for the first two years).

 

1 hour ago, java10 said:

 She is aware that it would be better for her to work from home instead of having to work on some probably crappy jobs until she lands a good one.

BTW, what would you consider a "good job"?

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@java10

 

Unless you wish to draw their intense notice to all your future applictions I would suggest you refrain from calling the ABH to ask whether or not your wife, or you, may be entitled to any special exceptions to their SOPs.

 

They may or may not take the time to answer all your enquiries, but they almost certainly will mark your file with some internal red flag which is more likely to have a negative effect on your swift attainment of the liberating conditions you wish to have applied to your work permit.

 

If you or your wife do not have the words "erwerbstätigkeit gestattet" (which enable you to take up self-employment or direct employment) included on your permit/s then you are limited to the conditions implied by "beschäftigung erlaubt" which essentially means you may take on regular employment only.

 

Quote

Unter Erwerbstätigkeit versteht das Gesetz nun die selbständige Tätigkeit als Unternehmer und die unselbständige Tätigkeit als Arbeitnehmer in einem Arbeitsverhältnis (§ 2 Abs. 2 AufenthG).

 

Die unselbständige Erwerbstätigkeit heißt jetzt Beschäftigung und wird in § 7 SGB IV legaldefiniert.

 

Beide Begriffe müssen strikt auseinandergehalten werden: So dürfen Studenten maximal 120 volle Tage oder 240 halbe Tage im Jahr einer Beschäftigung nachgehen und studentische Nebentätigkeiten ausüben; selbständig erwerbstätig dürfen sie dagegen nicht sein (§ 16 Abs. 3 AufenthG).

^^Arbeitserlaubnis - Das Recht auf Erwerbstätigkeit (German Wikipedia)

 

2B

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3 minutes ago, 2B_orNot2B said:

they almost certainly will mark your file with some internal red flag which is more likely to have a negative effect

 

they seem to have problems doing anything "swiftly", and for the number of times they've been unable to find my paperwork, told me contradictory things, made me come back with additional docs only to be told the first set should have been sufficient... 

 

Suffice it to say I am amused at the thought that they coordinate *anything*, let alone little red flags, but I guess anything is possible. 

 

Asking about what you have permission to do under your current permit is safe, but asking "hey can I do this very specific thing" is perhaps risky, I agree. 

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22 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

 

Asking about what you have permission to do under your current permit is safe, but asking "hey can I do this very specific thing" is perhaps risky, I agree. 

 

What's allowed is written on your residence permit, you'd just have to read it. 

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9 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

What's allowed is written on your residence permit, you'd just have to read it. 

 

well technically yes, that's true, but understanding what exactly it *means* is not always so obvious.  If you can get clarification here, fine, but I don't think it's outrageous to ask the ABH for clarification when you have a question.  I've done it and they've always been very helpful.

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15 minutes ago, lisa13 said:

 

well technically yes, that's true, but understanding what exactly it *means* is not always so obvious.  If you can get clarification here, fine, but I don't think it's outrageous to ask the ABH for clarification when you have a question.  I've done it and they've always been very helpful.

 

I agree. As far as I am concerned - I wouldn't ask it like this:

 

"If I am not allowed to start my own business as a Blue Card holder - would it be possible for my wife to start one?"

 

I would rather put it up something like this:

 

"My wife would like to get employed but is also considering self-employment. Is she allowed to start a small company, provided she is on a dependent visa?"

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An update for anyone interested in the topic.

 

The other day we went to to take care of my familiy's expiring entry visas. Since my Blue Card was already approved (in the meantime I had Aufenthaltstitel until 2020), I also proceeded to have it stamped in my passport on the same day. So they processed us together and my family was given their Aufenthaltstitels tied to my Blue Card expiry date.

 

Now, I took the opportunity and asked the clerk on my way out: Is my wife allowed to start a small business, although she is dependent on my status?

He replied with zero hesistation: Yes, she is.

 

I will also try to reach the Blue Card responsible authority once again to ask this question specifically but I expect the same answer.

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A new update to the topic for the people that might be interested (and also some questions for everyone reading this).

 

My wife decided to go for Kleingewerbe registration. It seems that activities may be freely combined - so she would be doing Termine in SportStudios + some IT/Web dev activities from home.

 

Now the questions. How does the mandatory health insurance work in this case? At the moment she is insured through me, but as soon as she starts her own employment, I guess she needs to choose her own Krankenkasse and start paying for it from the Gewerbe money.ä

 

  1. Are there some thresholds that define the amounts due for this public insurance?
  2. In case she is offered part-time employment (20h/week), is the money her employer pays to the Krankenkasse enough or she must pay some by herself because of the Gewerbe?
  3. How difficult is the switch from the "regular" Gewerbe to the Nebenberuflich Gewerbe?

Thanks for the input!

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38 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

  1. Are there some thresholds that define the amounts due for this public insurance?
  2. In case she is offered part-time employment (20h/week), is the money her employer pays to the Krankenkasse enough or she must pay some by herself because of the Gewerbe?
  3. How difficult is the switch from the "regular" Gewerbe to the Nebenberuflich Gewerbe?

1. I believe she is allowed to earn up to €400 per month and still be covered on your family policy (€450 on a minijob). Those may not be the exact figures. The minimum amount she'll have to pay if she goes over that was cut in half at the start of this year - I don't know the exact figure.

2. If she's actually offered employment, then her work insurance contributions (she and the employer each pay half) will cover everything.

3. Not at all. If she's set up everything for the business and then gets a regular job (part-time or full-time), she can continue to run the business as before, if she decides it's still worth her time (it often isn't due to the bureaucracy involved).

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25 minutes ago, java10 said:

A new update to the topic for the people that might be interested (and also some questions for everyone reading this).

My wife decided to go for Kleingewerbe registration.

 

*sigh* I'll repeat myself one more time (I wrote it twice in September '18), but then I'll give up:

 

Actually there is no "Kleingewerbe"– the Kleinunternehmerregelung is only VAT-wise relevant, Kleinunternehmer (less than 17.500€ turnover) don't have to charge VAT.

 

25 minutes ago, java10 said:

Now the questions. How does the mandatory health insurance work in this case? At the moment she is insured through me, but as soon as she starts her own employment, I guess she needs to choose her own Krankenkasse and start paying for it from the Gewerbe money.

 

Yes, she can only be insured with your family if she has less than 445€ profit per month. 

 

25 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

  1. Are there some thresholds that define the amounts due for this public insurance?

 

In addition to the above mentioned 445€ for family insurance, there is a minimum contribution for voluntarily insured self-employed persons in the statutory health insurance: 156,79€ without entitlement to sickness benefit from the seventh week of incapacity for work, 163,02€ with entitlement to sickness benefit. 

 

Additionally 34.20€ (for childless) and/or 31.67€ (parents) become due for the care insurance. 

 

Above the minimum contribution, the contribution is calculated on the basis of her profit. 

 

25 minutes ago, java10 said:
  1. In case she is offered part-time employment (20h/week), is the money her employer pays to the Krankenkasse enough or she must pay some by herself because of the Gewerbe?

 

That depends on the concrete figures. If most of the income comes from a part-time job, that's enough. You still have to inform your health insurance company. 

 

25 minutes ago, java10 said:
  1. How difficult is the switch from the "regular" Gewerbe to the Nebenberuflich Gewerbe?

 

Not difficult at all, just do it.

 

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1 hour ago, someonesdaughter said:

...

Yes, she can only be insured with your family if she has less than 445€ profit per month. 

...

 

Ooops, I remember now - thanks for pointing it out again.

 

The info on the amount being under 450 EUR per month is new to me, thank you both for sharing it.

 

Regarding the quoted part of your reply - wouldn't profit mean the amount after all the costs, etc. are deducted? Maybe you meant - "turnover" (hopefully you didn't).

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29 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

Ooops, I remember now - thanks for pointing it out again.

 

The info on the amount being under 450 EUR per month is new to me, thank you both for sharing it.

 

450€ only with a minijob, it's 445€: 

 

"Familienversicherung: Einkommensgrenze 2019

 

Die beitragsfreie Familienversicherung kann nur durchgeführt werden, wenn der Ehegatte, Lebenspartner oder das Kind regelmäßig höchstens über ein Gesamteinkommen (§ 16 SGB IV) von monatlich 1/7 der Bezugsgröße verfügt. Diese Einkommensgrenze steigt im Jahr 2019 bundeseinheitlich auf 445 Euro monatlich an."

 

https://www.haufe.de/sozialwesen/leistungen-sozialversicherung/sozialversicherungswerte_242_421700.html

 

29 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

Regarding the quoted part of your reply - wouldn't profit mean the amount after all the costs, etc. are deducted? Maybe you meant - "turnover" (hopefully you didn't).

 

I meant profit, that's why I wrote profit.

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2 hours ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

450€ only with a minijob, it's 445€: 

 

"Familienversicherung: Einkommensgrenze 2019

 

Die beitragsfreie Familienversicherung kann nur durchgeführt werden, wenn der Ehegatte, Lebenspartner oder das Kind regelmäßig höchstens über ein Gesamteinkommen (§ 16 SGB IV) von monatlich 1/7 der Bezugsgröße verfügt. Diese Einkommensgrenze steigt im Jahr 2019 bundeseinheitlich auf 445 Euro monatlich an."

 

https://www.haufe.de/sozialwesen/leistungen-sozialversicherung/sozialversicherungswerte_242_421700.html

 

 

I meant profit, that's why I wrote profit.

 

That's great info, thank you very much. I will check this with my current Krankenkasse.

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6 hours ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

*sigh* I'll repeat myself one more time (I wrote it twice in September '18), but then I'll give up:

 

Actually there is no "Kleingewerbe"– the Kleinunternehmerregelung is only VAT-wise relevant, Kleinunternehmer (less than 17.500€ turnover) don't have to charge VAT.

 

 

Yes, she can only be insured with your family if she has less than 445€ profit per month. 

 

 

In addition to the above mentioned 445€ for family insurance, there is a minimum contribution for voluntarily insured self-employed persons in the statutory health insurance: 156,79€ without entitlement to sickness benefit from the seventh week of incapacity for work, 163,02€ with entitlement to sickness benefit. 

 

Additionally 34.20€ (for childless) and/or 31.67€ (parents) become due for the care insurance. 

 

Above the minimum contribution, the contribution is calculated on the basis of her profit. 

 

 

That depends on the concrete figures. If most of the income comes from a part-time job, that's enough. You still have to inform your health insurance company. 

 

 

Not difficult at all, just do it.

 

Give up. 🙄

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