Options for my wife to start a Kleine-Gewerbe with her degree

36 posts in this topic

Hello TT'ers,

 

Since my wife is new to Munich and is yet to try to find a job (she holds Bachelor degree in economy), I started to think about an option for her to register a small company.

 

That company would:

- be as small as possible; that being said, is Klein-Gewerbe = mini-GmbH?

- have its seat at our address (let's assume our landlord would not object to this)

- be providing hosting-services, website maintanence and design, run an online-shop, etc.

- allow her to employ short-time other persons

- preferrably be able to employ me (employed full-time in IT field) on a mini-job basis => let's also assume my employer would approve this)

 

How viable are the above points under a such a company run by an economist without formal IT education (but with practical experience in this area), from the German State's perspective?

 

 

Thanks for your input!

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42 minutes ago, java10 said:

Hello TT'ers,

 

Since my wife is new to Munich and is yet to try to find a job (she holds Bachelor degree in economy), I started to think about an option for her to register a small company.

 

That company would:

- be as small as possible; that being said, is Klein-Gewerbe = mini-GmbH?

 

Actually there is no "Kleingewerbe"– the Kleinunternehmerregelung is only VAT-wise relevant, Kleinunternehmer (less than 17.500€ turnover) don't have to charge VAT. Mini-GmbH is a different thing. 

 

42 minutes ago, java10 said:

How viable are the above points under a such a company run by an economist without formal IT education (but with practical experience in this area), from the German State's perspective?

 

 

The state doesn't care about her education.

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47 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

Actually there is no "Kleingewerbe"– the Kleinunternehmerregelung is only VAT-wise relevant, Kleinunternehmer (less than 17.500€ turnover) don't have to charge VAT. Mini-GmbH is a different thing. 

 

The state doesn't care about her education.

 

Thank you very much for your input, I really appreciate it.

 

Hopefully someone else can give info on the other points in the list.

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5 minutes ago, java10 said:

Hopefully someone else can give info on the other points in the list.

 

You describe what the new company should do. What information are you missing?

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4 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

You describe what the new company should do. What information are you missing?

 

- Would my wife be able to hire me as her husband on a mini-job basis?

- When she would be registering a klein-Unternehmen, would they require that she has a certain level of language (maybe to provide appropriate certificate)?

- Is such a small company allowed to do any types of jobs or only the ones that the owner declares at the registration?

- Is there a deposit involved (and if yes, what amount)?

 

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Read your rental contract thoroughly to see if it is allowed to run a business from your apartment. Don't do anything until you have written approval from your landlord.

 

You must also check if your work contract allows you to have a second job and if so how many hours you can work there. 

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3 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

- Would my wife be able to hire me as her husband on a mini-job basis?

 

Yes. She has to pay minimum wage.

 

3 minutes ago, java10 said:

- When she would be registering a klein-Unternehmen,

 

The Kleinunternehmerregelung is only VAT-wise relevant, it's not a form of enterprise she can register. She has to register a Gewerbe and unless she choses another form of enterprise (Mini GmbH, GmbH etc.) her form of enterprise will be sole trader.

 

3 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

would they require that she has a certain level of language (maybe to provide appropriate certificate)?

 

No. But all involved authorities (trade office, tax office, IHK, trade association, minijob center) will communicate with her in German).

 

3 minutes ago, java10 said:

- Is such a small company allowed to do any types of jobs or only the ones that the owner declares at the registration?

 

Only those specified on the trade licence/Gewerbeschein.

 

3 minutes ago, java10 said:

- Is there a deposit involved (and if yes, what amount)?

 

 

No deposit. But the full entrepreneurial risk, sole proprietors are liable with all their assets. 

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11 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

- Would my wife be able to hire me as her husband on a mini-job basis?

..

 

 

 

Didn't you want to do something similar with a "friend" in order to avoid paying taxes?  

 

So now you have changed that instead of your friend owning the business that you wife will do it?

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

 

Didn't you want to do something similar with a "friend" in order to avoid paying taxes?  

 

So now you have changed that instead of your friend owning the business that you wife will do it?

 

 

I am not trying to avoid paying taxes. The idea is developing - I am considering many options. Please don't accuse me again of trying to avoid paying any taxes - I never stated something like that.

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5 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

I am not trying to avoid paying taxes. The idea is developing - I am considering many options. Please don't accuse me again for trying to avoid paying any taxes - I never stated something like that.

 

Is that not what this thread was about?

 

 

Quote

What comes to my mind as possible sources of such non-taxable income is hosting and administering a website or similar. So, no actual employer if the website is owned by myself. What if it is owned and run by someone else -- what financial burden would that person have if they were to hire me (Nebenjob)?

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

Is that not what this thread was about?

 

 

 

Well, no.

I am basically interested in having a passive income through a neben-job / mini-job if the law allows for it. That means I was basically asking: If it was possible for me to find a job that under 450 EUR per month BUT does not require me to travel after my regular job and to spend there working a couple of hours, then go home -- would the law allow it?

Provided the above is true, then it could be that:
- the law also does not mind if the "employer" is myself so I can start and administer/manage a website which would generate such an income, OR
- the law is explicit that someone *has* to employ me. In that case, I would suggest someone else (my friend) to integrate this idea into his existing business, be the owner of it but employ me on a mini-job basis to manage it and earn my non-taxable income


If the above is still not clear to you and you are still not convinced, then I can't help you.

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17 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

I am not trying to avoid paying taxes. The idea is developing - I am considering many options. Please don't accuse me again of trying to avoid paying any taxes - I never stated something like that.

 

FYI there is nothing illegal (or unethical) in trying to 'avoid paying taxes' provided it is done within the rules. Most people try to avoid paying whatever taxes the law allows them to.

 

I think you may be confusing tax avoidance with tax evasion which is, even by attempt, illegal and, in most people's opinion, highly unethical.

 

2B

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13 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

Well, no.

I am basically interested in having a passive income

 

Whatever you mean by "passive income" ...

 

Quote

 

through a neben-job / mini-job if the law allows for it. That means I was basically asking: If it was possible for me to find a job that under 450 EUR per month BUT does not require me to travel after my regular job and to spend there working a couple of hours, then go home -- would the law allow it?

 

As said before (a couple of times): It depends on your work permit.

 

Quote

Provided the above is true, then it could be that:
- the law also does not mind if the "employer" is myself

 

You can not employ yourself. That's impossible. But – if your work permit allows it – you could start to be self employed. 

 

Quote


- the law is explicit that someone *has* to employ me. 

 

If your work permit does not allow self employed but allows being employed in a second job that would be possible.

 

Still: you need to check your damn work permit!

 

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53 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

- Would my wife be able to hire me as her husband on a mini-job basis?

 

 

 

You want your wife to hire you as her husband :lol:?  Position offered as husband on a mini-job basis, 450 Euro a month?  What's the job spec? Lot of women might like that idea probably, but, er, nope.    Not how it works here.  

 

What does your wife think of your plans?  She'd be the business woman.   If she's running a business it's her "option" to develop, not her spouse's.  Expecting a spouse (or friend) to do this so you can earn a tiny bit of income is probably unrealistic.   Her effort in simply setting it up, doing the tax returns etc and in the risk she takes on will cost her 5k a year. 

 

Might it not be easier if you just set up this small business yourself?   In the time you've spent on this, you could make a start.   If it is small scale, you will just earn a bit of income.

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11 minutes ago, someonesdaughter said:

 

Whatever you mean by "passive income" ...

 

 

As said before (a couple of times): It depends on your work permit.

 

 

You can not employ yourself. That's impossible. But – if your work permit allows it – you could start to be self employed. 

 

 

If your work permit does not allow self employed but allows being employed in a second job that would be possible.

 

Still: you need to check your damn work permit!

 

 

Well, by "passive" I mean - not requiring too much of my time, especially not requiring me to travel to another employer, etc. Instead, I would be managing stuff from home.

 

Still: you need to check your damn work permit!

Well, my damn work permit does not currently allow me to start a business (and as far the mini-job is concerned: I do not have to work for this small company, that's a separate issue). That's why I started this new thread to see what obstacles my wife might face if she wanted to start the business instead of me PLUS hire me on a mini-job basis if possible (because I'm her spouse and family member).

 

If I were the one to start the business, then I would most certainly have the same question - can I hire my wife on a mini-job basis.

 

If anyone still wants to accuse me of trying to evade taxes - please do so but be explicit in claiming how exactly I am trying to do so.

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13 minutes ago, swimmer said:

 

You want your wife to hire you as her husband :lol:?  Position offered as husband on a mini-job basis, 450 Euro a month?  What's the job spec? Lot of women might like that idea probably, but, er, nope.    Not how it works here.  

 

What does your wife think of your plans?  She'd be the business woman.   If she's running a business it's her "option" to develop, not her spouse's.  Expecting a spouse (or friend) to do this so you can earn a tiny bit of income is probably unrealistic.   Her effort in simply setting it up, doing the tax returns etc and in the risk she takes on will cost her 5k a year. 

 

Might it not be easier if you just set up this small business yourself?   In the time you've spent on this, you could make a start.   If it is small scale, you will just earn a bit of income.

 

She agreed. She is aware that it would be better for her to work from home instead of having to work on some probably crappy jobs until she lands a good one. Yes, this would be hard work anyway but she would be building a good foundation for our future business (probably on my name, or both of us) once I apply and get permanent residence and possibly decide to quit working for others (provided the small company grew enough to give us confidence to convert to GmbH for example).

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If you're not allowed to start your own business due to your visa, what makes you think your wife - who I presume is registered here as your dependent - would be able to do so? To get a business visa, she'd have to present a thorough business plan, which might be an obstacle if her language skills are as limited as you say.

 

But yes, if she were allowed to start her own business, she could "hire" you under mini-job status and pay you €450/month, but it would cost her €585/month due to the flat 30% she has to pay in taxes and social insurance contributions on mini-job positions. That €450 is tax-free for you, but not for her. And she'd have to earn that money first, of course. As a household, you'd essentially be taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. And if you calculate it wrong, you could end up with less than you had before.

 

The rest has already been covered: your landlord probably won't object to someone working from home as long as there is no impact on the other building residents (and zoning laws allow it even if the property is zoned strictly residential), but that ceases to be the case as soon as you have customers visiting you, employees working there, or any other kind of person or logistics traffic. What is she thinking of selling on this "web shop"?

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23 minutes ago, El Jeffo said:

If you're not allowed to start your own business due to your visa, what makes you think your wife - who I presume is registered here as your dependent - would be able to do so? To get a business visa, she'd have to present a thorough business plan, which might be an obstacle if her language skills are as limited as you say.

 

But yes, if she were allowed to start her own business, she could "hire" you under mini-job status and pay you €450/month, but it would cost her €585/month due to the flat 30% she has to pay in taxes and social insurance contributions on mini-job positions. That €450 is tax-free for you, but not for her. And she'd have to earn that money first, of course. As a household, you'd essentially be taking money out of one pocket and putting it in the other. And if you calculate it wrong, you could end up with less than you had before.

 

The rest has already been covered: your landlord probably won't object to someone working from home as long as there is no impact on the other building residents (and zoning laws allow it even if the property is zoned strictly residential), but that ceases to be the case as soon as you have customers visiting you, employees working there, or any other kind of person or logistics traffic. What is she thinking of selling on this "web shop"?

 

Good points.

 

Re the first paragraph - I need to check further but for now - I was confirmed that, despite my wife being a dependant - her potential employer does not have to ask/apply for issuance of Vorabzustimmung from the Agentur für Arbeit in order to employ her. That info came from the Office that deals with Blue Card. I recently phoned them because I wanted to know if my Blue Card once I get it will automatically allow me to start a business (it will not -- I would need an explicit Self-employment visa, or wait until I get settlement permit).

 

To recap, my wife as a dependant does not need Vorabzustimmung, whereas I, should I decide to change a company, would need one (not sure if that is also the case once I possess Blue Card).

 

Anyway, that fact makes me believe that she might also be allowed to start a business but I will need to call them again to ask this (I wasn't considering this option at the time).

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Just now, java10 said:

Anyway, that fact makes me believe that she might also be allowed to start a business but I will need to call them again to ask this (I wasn't considering this option at the time).

I don't follow your train of thought. Just because she doesn't require advance approval to accept a job doesn't mean she has permission to be self-employed - especially if you don't. I think you're being overly optimistic about your chances.

 

Not only that, but going into business for yourself requires interaction with German bureaucracy at any number of levels, which even people who speak the language fluently (or as a native speaker) find taxing. That's why many people find it to be not worth their effort to be a low-income self-employed person unless there's absolutely no other alternative.

 

You're in Munich, a fairly international city, and you say your wife has business and IT skills. Since she apparently isn't subject to the Vorrangprüfung, I suggest she simply look for a regular job.

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31 minutes ago, java10 said:

 

Well, by "passive" I mean - not requiring too much of my time, especially not requiring me to travel to another employer, etc. Instead, I would be managing stuff from home.

...

 

 

The truth is that for any "job" there must be a clearly defined role and work hours.  This is not just the total number of hours per week/month but the time in which you would work them, and where and how you would be expected to work (from home is fine).  Then, you would have to also do time reporting to prove that you did work these hours.  During which time you do actually have to work.

So basically you can't earn "passively" if you have a proper job, even if it is a mini-job.  You need to actively do something.

 

 

If you hire a family member then the relationship between the employer and employee will probably be under greater scrutiny than normal.  The salary for example has to be deemed appropriate for the work performed (not the qualifications you have!) and the hours the task is performed for.  So they would expect a fixed number of hours per month (this can vary slightly of course but looks suspicious if 1 month you work 40 hours and the next 2).

 

So, if you expect to be paid 450 Euros for 1 hour work per month to be a "cleaner" then this would not be considered appropriate.  Similarly, the minimum salary must also be paid.

 

Then you have to factor in the cost of employing somebody.  The employer has extra insurance, pension contributions etc to make, but this will of course vary (I see that @El Jeffo

 added more detail ).  And of course the business also has to pay for other things such as employee insurance, hiring an office, paying for equipment, hiring a tax consultant, accountant etc.  

And the company would have to make enough money to cover all of this and still make your wife a living.  It would look suspicious if you as an employee earned 450 euros every month, but she earned nothing or very little!

 

You can save some taxes etc. if hiring on a mini-job basis.  But just be aware that there are limits to what is allowed.

 

 

And don't forget.  That at the end of the year you will submit your tax return as a married couple.  So your total earnings for the both of you for the whole year will be considered.

 

I would suggest that you talk to an account to find out what is the best way of doing this, based on your projected income.  It might be better this way, or it might be better if she keeps all the income for herself.

 

Some links about benefits and things to consider;

https://www.freelancermap.de/freelancer-ratgeber/11744-arbeitsvertrag-mit-familienangehoerigen--ehefrau-anstellen

 

https://www.ruv.de/ratgeber/unternehmen/management/familienbetrieb

 

 

 

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