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Newly renovated shop with no flooring

16 posts in this topic

Why is Internet research so unhelpful?

 

As I wrote under another thread, I met with my future shop landlord on Monday.  We had a chat again this morning and a new issue has risen.  The floor! :huh:

 

The shop has sat empty for at least seven years.  Most due to it's size and what type of business could potentially go in.  Also, I'm beginning to think another reason might be this landlord.  Not sure on that.  Again, staying optimistic.

 

He claims today, that the floor is my responsibility.  As he has other things to renovate such as adding the rest of the electrical sockets and finishing the walls.  He did state he will paint the walls and what colour would I like.  It is, as he claims a special silicon type wall and wall covering, so involves a special paint.  Then came the floor.  He says this will need to be sorted by me.  The shop is 60qm.

 

From everything I've read there seems to be little on renting commercial property, short of the six month termination.  However, I have read that the commercial property need be in order for a renter.  How can not having flooring be considered 'in order'?

 

Googling brings up renovations more often than not and rights on flats between the landlord and the renter.  There is so little on commerical properties and I have looked at the BGB.  Before I post something on Anwalt.de, does anyone have any knowledge on who carries the cost of floors in a commercial property?  There is only concrete at present and it will require some type of flooring.

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https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/instandhaltung-instandsetzung-und-renovierung-im-gewerblichen-miet-und-pachtrecht_020442.html

states that per law, the *landlord* has to fix the commercial property and rent it to you in a usable state, aka with proper flooring. However, commercial rental contracts can be varied much more than private ones, up to burdening the tenant with all renovation/fixing.

 

That means the landlord is trying to pull a fast one on you and dump the cost of the flooring on you. Unfortunately, if you sign that agreement, it will be legal.

 

" Auch im Gewerbemietrecht liegen all diese Pflichten grundsätzlich beim Vermieter und können nur durch Vereinbarung auf den Mieter übertragen werden. Anders als im Wohnraummietrecht kann im Geschäftsraummietverhältnis jedoch nahezu alles zwischen den Parteien vereinbart werden, da der gewerbliche Mieter gegenüber dem einfachen Verbraucher als weniger schutzwürdig erscheint.

So können im Geschäftsraummietverhältnis zusätzlich zu der Übertragung der Schönheitsreparaturen zudem auch wesentlich weitgehender Instandhaltungs- und sogar Instandsetzungspflichten - anders als die im Wohnraummietrecht allein zulässige bloße und kostenmäßig vorab begrenzte Beteiligung an anfallenden Kleinreparaturen - formularmäßig auf den Mieter „übergewälzt" werden. "

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If you put in flooring, you can take it up when you leave if the landlord doesn't want to cover the cost. Perhaps you can negotiate a small rent reduction until you get your money back.

 

I know nothing. Just putting my thoughts in.

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43 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

If you put in flooring, you can take it up when you leave if the landlord doesn't want to cover the cost.

 

That would be true for a *private* rental.

 

As described in the article quoted above, a *commercial* (gewerbliche) rental contract can legally make the tenant cover just about any cost and sign away any rights IF he is foolish enough to sign that. There are no legal limitation or rights as for private rentals.

 

Now, if the OP might offer to reduce the the rent permanently by, say, 10% and agree to put in non removable flooring he likes in return. That might be agreeable to the landlord.

I suspect he doesn't have enough money / is too cheap for the entire renovation.

 

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2 hours ago, catjones said:

3D print one ;)

 

smartass! :lol:  Read that and about fell off the stool!  :lol:   That matter, I believe has been resolved and I will update the thread accordingly.

 

@Metall

Quote

Unfortunately, if you sign that agreement, it will be legal.

 

Not always.  There is case law in which contracts were ruled invalid in part on commercial properties.  I read a few already.  But more importantly, I am aware of what you're on about.  I worked enough contract fraud cases to know and to use caution.  The link you shared made a very important point.  In the middle, it suggests that both parties undertake a legal review of the contract.  I could not agree more.  It has more to do with the fact that my potential commercial landlord is a lawyer!

 

I can find nothing on what

He has enough money, but it could be also that he is tight with it.  This is a partnership between him and his brother, both of which are perhaps, over 60.  They are most like tired or dealing with the empty shop and just want to retire and enjoy life.  The one I have been dealing with lives about the shop.  I've no idea where the other lives.  Both have to 'approve' me taking over the shop.

I have been very friendly and polite, but I think it's time to be a bit more firm.  I have said neither no nor yes to anything.  For seven years or more, this place has stood empty and no one has moved in.  The building was built in 1840 and has no means to be fitted for a kitchen, so any type of gastro is a non-starter.  An office will also not work as there is no storage.  It is simply one room.  The shop next door, or actually on the other side of the building, I must share the toilet with, which is under the stairs which leads to the landlords flat.  Suffice to say for most businesses this is not agreeable.  Previously there was a Friseur in the shop.  A one-woman place.  She moved across the street to a much larger place as her business grew.

My carpenter gave me an estimate just for the wood flooring of 810€.  Not a huge amount, but it still has to be fitted.   That's probably another 500 - 700€.

I already asked about a slightly reduced rent just for the first two years.  He is fully against it.  This is typical here.  I have spoken with the owners of three other possible shops and they are all the same.  Won't budge.

 

Quote

the *landlord* has to fix the commercial property and rent it to you in a usable state, aka with proper flooring

 

Where is this stated?  I can find nothing that specifically states this.  While I can find similar references to 'usable state', there is nothing that actually defines it or includes proper flooring?  What is a usable state?  Walls, a door, ceiling and floor? 

 

Thanks for the info Metall!

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I think you are smart enough and informed enough to see the red flags here.

Can you consult your own lawyer on the situation?

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17 hours ago, BayrischDude said:

Previously there was a Friseur in the shop.  A one-woman place.  She moved across the street to a much larger place as her business grew.

 

Would you be able to ask her about the floor situation when she left the location? If she needed to put flooring in herself, and she then moved to a larger location, perhaps she still has it somewhere not being used. People do tend to store things "just in case". If the floor was considered to be part of the shop fitting then she may have had to take it with her. 

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, fraufruit said:

What about just putting down some cheap lino or laminate?

 

Actually fraufruit has a point - it might be the easiest way to just put in the cheapest flooring and eat the cost. No fancy wood.

However, all this of course is a red flag telling you to have your lawyer very carefully scrutinize the contract. I bet there's more hidden in there.

 

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23 hours ago, fraufruit said:

What about just putting down some cheap lino or laminate?

 

1 hour ago, Metall said:

 

Actually fraufruit has a point - it might be the easiest way to just put in the cheapest flooring and eat the cost. No fancy wood.

However, all this of course is a red flag telling you to have your lawyer very carefully scrutinize the contract. I bet there's more hidden in there.

 

 

It is a good point.  The carpenter's offer, while it is good, is a non-starter.  I looked at PVC flooring yesterday and the cost for material is about 650€.  A mate is willing to fit it to the room for nothing.  Well, I'd take him and his wife to supper.

 

I need something somewhat strong and durable.  With all the tools I use and am prone to drop them on occasion, a thin flooring won't do.  I also have a wee tendency to spill dyes.  

I do appreciate the helpful ideas and thoughts.

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Why bother with a floor covering at all?

 

If you are such a clumsy fucker, why not just wait till things go "Tits up" and then do your best on leaving the place?

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Since you occasionally drop tools and spill dyes, would it possibly be easier to just lay down the rubber mats that they use for horse stalls?  It would give you cushioning and an easy to replace surface but I have no idea on the cost here in Germany.

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6 hours ago, chooyo said:

Since you occasionally drop tools and spill dyes, would it possibly be easier to just lay down the rubber mats that they use for horse stalls?  It would give you cushioning and an easy to replace surface but I have no idea on the cost here in Germany.

 

Not a bad idea. Just put that rubber matting where you will be standing and working. After all it's a workshop innit?

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Only partially a workshop.  The front half will have leather items on offer. 

 

Matter has been resolved today through another local lawyer who has worked with the landlord.  Landlord will put in the floor of my choosing.  Cost me 200€, but cheaper than a fitted, proper floor.

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