Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

462 posts in this topic

33 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

Will my 3.5m long Ladders fit on top of a Tesla?  

Will I be able to get to Munich and back from Franfurt in 16hrs ( Incl 5 hrs work) with Ladders and costing 90€ in diesel...

 

Because I can do that in my current vehicle that is more than 8 years old...   

 

 

 

Tesla has even giant trucks in their plans.   Probably the market is not yet ready for vans, but it will come.  That's the reason they are not banning new ICE cars next year, instead the optimistic countries are thinking 2030 or so.   And then they will ban only new cars, the old ones will most probably stay in the roads, which it would be easily another 20 years at least.   So you are complaining and hating something that it is not going to happen tomorrow and for what they will be another 30 years or engineering.   Most of us won't even be alive by then.

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2 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 So you are complaining and hating something that it is not going to happen tomorrow and for what they will be another 30 years or engineering.   Most of us won't even be alive by then.

up until 3 weeks ago... the Diesel ban in Frankfurt was a reallity that was 3 months away!

 

 

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47 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

up until 3 weeks ago... the Diesel ban in Frankfurt was a reallity that was 3 months away!

 

 

 

You still have the benzine (and benzine+LPG) alternative.   Hating e-cars because of the anti-Diesel current wave does not really make sense.

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But the vehicle that I have at the moment is more efficient than any Petrol/Petrol/LPG alternative!!

I chose diesel as I was always told its the most cost efficient of all of the fosil fuel alternatives!.... 

 

But I still find it ever so strange that most of the cities with hig polution rates are situated on a or near a Shipping Lane! 

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Sure, I do not agree with the diesel ban for euro-V and VI either, specially when basically every benzine car gets a green sticker.   And I agree that it was very crappy that the government promoted diesel cars just to change their minds and considering banning them just a couple of years later.

 

However I find strange your hate on e-cars.   

 

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I dont hate e-cars... 

 

I hate how I will be forced to buy one at some stage... 

 

I almost NEVER buy any "previously owned" electrionic device that relies on a battery because I have no idea how the battery has been used/abused.. (Yes, the same could be said about an ICE vehicle,,, but I can repair a damaged ICE) 

By the time an E-car has become "affordable", the battery will probably be shafted and entering into a new rental contract with a battery supplier will no doubt be costly! 

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13 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

You still have the benzine (and benzine+LPG) alternative.   Hating e-cars because of the anti-Diesel current wave does not really make sense.

 

But who suffers when such policy is introduced?  The poor, or poorer people.  Because they are more likely to have older cars which are more polluting because they can't afford to change their car every year.  The rich who can afford to spend 100k on a new car every 3 - 5 years don't have this "problem".

 

Also, eCars cost more than their equivalent ICE version, again putting it out reach of the poorer.

Add to that the fact that second hand eCars are very scarce and also much more expensive than their ICE equivalent also means that it stays out of reach for longer.

 

I'm also not convinced that moving energy generation from an ICE to a large power station is necessarily better long term, when we are still reliant on such much fossil fuels to generate power.  It just shifts the problem from one place to another. 

 

 

And if everybody tomorrow buys an eCar?  According to this source: 

http://euanmearns.com/how-much-more-electricity-do-we-need-to-go-to-100-electric-vehicles/

 

we would need 40% more electricity capacity in Germany At a cost of 232 bn Euros.  

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

I dont hate e-cars... 

 

I hate how I will be forced to buy one at some stage... 

Do yourself a favor: in the next 2 years go out and do a test drive on a modern EV. You will be pleasently surprised

 

6 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

 

I almost NEVER buy any "previously owned" electrionic device that relies on a battery because I have no idea how the battery has been used/abused.. (Yes, the same could be said about an ICE vehicle,,, but I can repair a damaged ICE) 

By the contrary, on a Tesla:

a) it will tell you useful capacity

b ) it will tell you if it has damaged battery modules

c) you can easily swap damaged battery modules. Tesla´s battery, contrary to others, can be partially replaced.

d) you will get a much better status report than with a used ICE

 

6 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

By the time an E-car has become "affordable", the battery will probably be shafted and entering into a new rental contract with a battery supplier will no doubt be costly! 

There is already that concept with Zoe but it is a bad deal and nobody else is pushing for it.

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I dont really consider myself poor... as I dont have debt, own my home and more... 

 

But if I was to buy a new E-car.. I could put myself in the "poor" bracket...

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4 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

I dont hate e-cars... 

 

I hate how I will be forced to buy one at some stage... 

 

I almost NEVER buy any "previously owned" electrionic device that relies on a battery because I have no idea how the battery has been used/abused.. (Yes, the same could be said about an ICE vehicle,,, but I can repair a damaged ICE) 

By the time an E-car has become "affordable", the battery will probably be shafted and entering into a new rental contract with a battery supplier will no doubt be costly! 

 

 

Yes, we agree in several of those statements.  Because as I mentioned several times, I never buy a brand new car.  And the e-cars price retention is very high.

 

But battery "abuse" in e-cars is slowly disappearing because the engineering into them is making almost impossible to "abuse" them.  And then the e-car is blatantly honest, it will tell you which batteries are damaged or degraded directly in the dashboard.

 

And if you check what's inside an e-car you will see that at least in the core of what a car is, the e-car is actually much simpler than an ICE.  That's why they seem to be much more reliable than an ICE.

 

Of course they have a bunch of electronics surrounding the core of the car, but ICE cars are the same nowadays.

 

If you managed to learn how to fix an ICE car I see no reason why you can't learn how to fix an electric one, they seemed to be much more simpler.

 

 

1 minute ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

But who suffers when such policy is introduced?  The poor, or poorer people.  Because they are more likely to have older cars which are more polluting because they can't afford to change their car every year.  The rich who can afford to spend 100k on a new car every 3 - 5 years don't have this "problem".

 

In this we agree, the poor are more vulnerable, but as far as I know, they won't ban the used ICE cars.  They will only ban making new ICE cars.  So poor people can still continue buying second hand ICE cars for long time.   I would assume by 2050 when ICE cars start to disappear there would be cheap second hand e-cars around, or we have been invented tele-transportation by then, or we all became 100% sedentary and no one leaves ever the house.

 

1 minute ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

Also, eCars cost more than their equivalent ICE version, again putting it out reach of the poorer.

 

E-cars are expensive here because the western world decided to start making high end cars first.  And because we have high mandatory safety standards.  You can buy tiny brand new sub 2k cars in China already.  And normal small sized sub 15k e-cars.

 

Ironically China is becoming the leader of the new electric world order.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Do yourself a favor: in the next 2 years go out and do a test drive on a modern EV. You will be pleasently surprised

 

By the contrary, on a Tesla:

a) it will tell you useful capacity

b ) it will tell you if it has damaged battery modules

c) you can easily swap damaged battery modules. Tesla´s battery, contrary to others, can be partially replaced.

d) you will get a much better status report than with a used ICE

 

Sold!!.. 
I will buy one... ONLY if you lend me the money... 

I will sign a contract with you... but if the car becomes unreliable, costly or anything contrary to what you have promoted... You get the vehicle back and I get my Money back!  

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Krieg said:

...

 

In this we agree, the poor are more vulnerable, but as far as I know, they won't ban the used ICE cars.  They will only ban making new ICE cars.  So poor people can still continue buying second hand ICE cars for long time.   I would assume by 2050 when ICE cars start to disappear there would be cheap second hand e-cars around, or we have been invented tele-transportation by then, or we all became 100% sedentary and no one leaves ever the house.

 

 

 

If that is how it works then I'm fine with that.

But with cities (and maybe later states or countries!) banning certain types of vehicles then they are effectively saying "It's OK to own one, just as long as you don't intend to drive it anywhere!"  

 

As @SpiderPig said before:  He is forced to get a new car because once per week he needs to drive 800m into Frankfurt.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

..

Ironically China is becoming the leader of the new electric world order.

 

 

 

 

Did you know in China that there is legislation from this year which means every single eCar is fitted with a chip which can be used to track the vehicle in real-time by the government!

(A bit of topic).

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

Did you know in China that there is legislation from this year which means every single eCar is fitted with a chip which can be used to track the vehicle in real-time by the government!

(A bit of topic).

But the GPS and Sim card/UMTS system in all cars do this anyway...  :wacko:

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21 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

But who suffers when such policy is introduced?  The poor, or poorer people.  Because they are more likely to have older cars which are more polluting because they can't afford to change their car every year.  The rich who can afford to spend 100k on a new car every 3 - 5 years don't have this "problem".

The "plan" is that at some point car ownership inside cities becomes residual. People will move in small (10 ppl) automated vans, which will eventually replace most of existing mass transit systems. We are just entering the "transition" phase, so your reasoning is still part of the "old world".

 

21 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

Also, eCars cost more than their equivalent ICE version, again putting it out reach of the poorer.

Not entirely true. A Tesla Model 3 is cheaper than ICE cars on the same segment. In some cases, much cheaper.

And in 2-3 years several brands will have cheaper EVs than ICE equivalents, except perhaps for the ultra cheap ICE cars.

 

 

21 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

I'm also not convinced that moving energy generation from an ICE to a large power station is necessarily better long term, when we are still reliant on such much fossil fuels to generate power.  It just shifts the problem from one place to another. 

Not true. Actually this is the opposite. With EV, you can choose which energy source to power them. This is a huge geopolitical advantage. Also you can charge them with waste energy, during the night.

 

21 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

And if everybody tomorrow buys an eCar?  According to this source: 

http://euanmearns.com/how-much-more-electricity-do-we-need-to-go-to-100-electric-vehicles/

we would need 40% more electricity capacity in Germany At a cost of 232 bn Euros. 

Again, FUD. The transition will take 15-20 years. In the meantime, more power will be available, cars will be more efficient and self-generation will pick up the pace. Also the article´s author did not factor in the huge savings on energy wasted at night.

 

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2 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

But the GPS and Sim card/UMTS system in all cars do this anyway...  :wacko:

 

They could in theory do this, but there is no German law mandating this and no agency which collects such data.  And I think give German privacy standards there would be uproar is something like this was introduced!

 

Plus GPS is not that accurate in cities with tall skyscrapers, such as Shanghai!  They will have over the road trackers (as I understand) like we use here for the LKW Maut, which of course could also technically track vehicles!

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I assume that Mike Melga simply gets up.. drinks his coffee, puts on a suit and heads off to the same office every day... Comes home the same way and puts his car on charge the same way each day... 

 

If only he was in-touch with reallity and thinks the way that normal folks think...

 

The Emperors new clothes strikes again!

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2 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

They could in theory do this, but there is no German law mandating this and no agency which collects such data.  And I think give German privacy standards there would be uproar is something like this was introduced!

 

Plus GPS is not that accurate in cities with tall skyscrapers, such as Shanghai!  They will have over the road trackers (as I understand) like we use here for the LKW Maut, which of course could also technically track vehicles!

Yeah... Pin-point accuracy couldnt happen with the technology they have built in today... but they could certainly telly which Land transmitters each vehicle has pinged off on each trip... 

 

Take a look at where google thinks you have been in the past 12 months... One of my krumples was bragging about it last night!! 

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5 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

The "plan" is that at some point car ownership inside cities becomes residual. People will move in small (10 ppl) automated vans, which will eventually replace most of existing mass transit systems. We are just entering the "transition" phase, so your reasoning is still part of the "old world".

 

Not entirely true. A Tesla Model 3 is cheaper than ICE cars on the same segment. In some cases, much cheaper.

And in 2-3 years several brands will have cheaper EVs than ICE equivalents, except perhaps for the ultra cheap ICE cars.

 

 

Not true. Actually this is the opposite. With EV, you can choose which energy source to power them. This is a huge geopolitical advantage. Also you can charge them with waste energy, during the night.

 

Again, FUD. The transition will take 15-20 years. In the meantime, more power will be available, cars will be more efficient and self-generation will pick up the pace. Also the article´s author did not factor in the huge savings on energy wasted at night.

 

 

If that's what happens then fine, but it is a bit Utopian to me.  Remember how we should all have flying cars by 2018 and be travelling to Australia in 90mins.   I will love the day when all this happens, but am not convinced it will be in my lifetime (I am middle aged)

 

So, but I don't see how a 58K Tesla is cheaper than an 11k Dacia?  Or how an 36k eGolf is cheaper than a 20k petrol Golf!

 

 

I agree that EVs are the future in the next 10 - 15 -20 years, and I am not against them.  If they met my needs now I would switch if it was beneficial to me, but they are not yet there for me to do this realistically yet.  And like I said, I am concerned that we are just shifting the problem around rather than solving it.

 

I thought maybe that Hydrogen vehicles looked like a good solution, but it seems that there has been even less development in this area over the last years.

 

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38 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

 

If that is how it works then I'm fine with that.

But with cities (and maybe later states or countries!) banning certain types of vehicles then they are effectively saying "It's OK to own one, just as long as you don't intend to drive it anywhere!"  

 

As @SpiderPig said before:  He is forced to get a new car because once per week he needs to drive 800m into Frankfurt.

 

 

 

 

Did you know in China that there is legislation from this year which means every single eCar is fitted with a chip which can be used to track the vehicle in real-time by the government!

(A bit of topic).

 

Really off topic, but ... they have as well trying to implement "social points", just like in that Black Mirror episode.   (Your life is affected but the "likes" you receive in the network).

 

Anyway, China politics are crazy anyway.  But at least they tell you in advance they are tracking you and looking at you.   We are all probably spied by our governments and they do not tell us.  We carry happily the spying device in our pockets and we can't live without them.

 

 

23 minutes ago, SpiderPig said:

I assume that Mike Melga simply gets up.. drinks his coffee, puts on a suit and heads off to the same office every day... Comes home the same way and puts his car on charge the same way each day... 

 

If only he was in-touch with reallity and thinks the way that normal folks think...

 

The Emperors new clothes strikes again!

 

 

I don't think anyone is really forcing us to move to e-cars yet.   Because everyone knows the market is not yet ready.   I even believe that the plan to ban new ICE cars in some countries/cities in 2025 is unrealistic.

 

So people who have a stable routine in their lives can move already to e-cars if they feel like they want to do it.     I totally understand why some people do not want to do it today or next year.  But we have to accept as well that it is going to happen some day.

 

Edit: According to Wikipedia, Germany is banning new ICE cars in 2050.  So there will be ICE cars until like 2070.   Some people are still complaining.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_fossil_fuel_vehicles

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17 hours ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

If that's what happens then fine, but it is a bit Utopian to me.  Remember how we should all have flying cars by 2018 and be travelling to Australia in 90mins.   I will love the day when all this happens, but am not convinced it will be in my lifetime (I am middle aged)

Flying cars is a stupid concept perpetualized by "Back to the Future". You can technically do it, but it makes no sense.

Regarding travelling to Australia in 90 minutes, SpaceX is actually working on a 30 minute trip between any two places on earth.

 

17 hours ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

So, but I don't see how a 58K Tesla is cheaper than an 11k Dacia?  Or how an 36k eGolf is cheaper than a 20k petrol Golf!

I made a remark before that for the super cheap cars the EV revolution will come later. For the Golf, it won´t be that far off, because although the purchase costs are highier, the total cost of ownership is lower after 5-8 years.

 

17 hours ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

I agree that EVs are the future in the next 10 - 15 -20 years, and I am not against them. 

Oh boy, you´re in for a big surprise!

 

17 hours ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

If they met my needs now I would switch if it was beneficial to me, but they are not yet there for me to do this realistically yet.  And like I said, I am concerned that we are just shifting the problem around rather than solving it.

I already spent my time explaining that FUD energy issue but you don´t seem to want to hear it.

 

17 hours ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

I thought maybe that Hydrogen vehicles looked like a good solution, but it seems that there has been even less development in this area over the last years.

I would agree until I started paying attention to EVs a few years ago.

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