Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

[Chelski 1,481]

On 16/02/2023, 10:03:07, keith2011 said:

Presumably when Chelsea finally manage to win a game of football.

 

Does not compute. Sadly.

[rodisi 657]

Sorry folks, I don’t have time to read the whole thread as I’m on my way from Blighty to Frankfurt, in my diesel euro 4 car. It still has the green euro 4 plaquette. Can I drive into Frankfurt with this. I’ve been meaning to ask for days but….

[Krieg 15,113]

As far as I can see in this link, there is no ban in Frankfurt yet:

 

https://www.adac.de/verkehr/tanken-kraftstoff-antrieb/fahrverbote-umweltzonen/dieselfahrverbot-faq/

[rodisi 657]

Thank you.

[MikeMelga 7,346]

Today I contacted a garage here in Munich to check for prices to convert from Euro 5 to Euro 6. 

The lady was incredibly nice and told me i don't have to!

It seems there is a clause in the rules for Munich that, independently of being Euro 5 or 6, if the NOX emissions are below 270mg, you are excluded from the ban!

You just need to carry with you a copy of the EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung!

 

Which makes sense, because it should be about emission values and not a sticker.

[scook17 292]

On 5/9/2023, 3:13:34, MikeMelga said:

Today I contacted a garage here in Munich to check for prices to convert from Euro 5 to Euro 6. 

The lady was incredibly nice and told me i don't have to!

It seems there is a clause in the rules for Munich that, independently of being Euro 5 or 6, if the NOX emissions are below 270mg, you are excluded from the ban!

You just need to carry with you a copy of the EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung!

 

Which makes sense, because it should be about emission values and not a sticker.

 

Mike, how did you find out the NOX emissions? I don't find it on the registration document.

Seems every car gets a green sticker, so other than randomly stopping cars and asking, how exactly is this proposed to be policed?

 

I looked up my car, and I see they introduced SCR into the design in 2019

https://dieselforum.org/selective-catalytic-reduction-scr

https://www.tuningblog.eu/en/kategorien/tuev-gesetze-verbote/euro-norm-6-umruestung-456321/

 

"SCR can reduce NOx emissions up to 90%"

 

Basically what is commonly referred to as 'AdBlue'

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdBlue

 

So retrofitting old cars with such an exhaust treatment, might turn out to be a good after market product.

[yesterday 2,045]

yeah I have been thinking about his as well

 

I assume, what Mike means is that you get your car TUV every 2 years, you get 2 documents from this 

 

1( says the car is safe enough to drive on the road

2( an emissions statement of the car, its written on this as abgas n Anlage, I do not see anywhere were  EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung!  but I guess this is the document

 

I think Mike is right, its better to check the actual car emissions rather than reported specifications from the manufacture, as this can change over time.

 

The check will be made by the random cat checks that you see all round Munich etc. Of course if a cop sees, you are driving an old diesel in town there is nothing to stop him/her from doing this check on the fly.

 

My question is which figure do they check, as you get different figures printed depending if the car is idling  (leerlauf ) or in some other test cycle.

[MikeMelga 7,346]

1 hour ago, scook17 said:

 

Mike, how did you find out the NOX emissions? I don't find it on the registration document.

Seems every car gets a green sticker, so other than randomly stopping cars and asking, how exactly is this proposed to be policed?

This document ( EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung ) is issued by the manufacturer, specifically for your VIN.

If you don't have it, the manufacturer can issue a new on, but at a cost.

 

[scook17 292]

On 5/10/2023, 7:18:48, MikeMelga said:

This document ( EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung ) is issued by the manufacturer, specifically for your VIN.

If you don't have it, the manufacturer can issue a new on, but at a cost.

 

Ah, the EC Certificate of Conformity CoC. Now I know where to look. Thanks.

[yesterday 2,045]

 

On 10/05/2023, 19:18:48, MikeMelga said:

This document ( EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung ) is issued by the manufacturer, specifically for your VIN.

If you don't have it, the manufacturer can issue a new on, but at a cost.

 

 

Thank you so much 

 

Some additional information 

 

https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:8f829800-de0c-4125-88ec-df585d90fe20/221222_Infoblatt-8.FS_LRP.pdf   Seems to be the place were this rule is, Bottom of the last page on the left had side of the page

 

Had a loook around on the internet, I can get a COC for my car from the main dealer for 0 Euro, as its private and the first time I asked, outside of that private dealers can cost as much as 200 Euro.

 

 

[scook17 292]

On 5/9/2023, 3:13:34, MikeMelga said:

It seems there is a clause in the rules for Munich that, independently of being Euro 5 or 6, if the NOX emissions are below 270mg, you are excluded from the ban!

You just need to carry with you a copy of the EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung!

 

I did not find this statement officially printed anywhere, only Euro 4/5/6 as the key definition.

 

[yesterday 2,045]

2 hours ago, scook17 said:

 

I did not find this statement officially printed anywhere, only Euro 4/5/6 as the key definition.

 

 

As said above, it said in this document.

 

 

https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:8f829800-de0c-4125-88ec-df585d90fe20/221222_Infoblatt-8.FS_LRP.pdf   Seems to be the place were this rule is, Bottom of the last page on the left had side of the page

 

Here is a picture of the exception text, from the link to the document 

 

 

I went on Saturday, to 3 police stations in Munich. 

Non of the police knew about this exception, after talking about it for 

some time, 2 out of 3 police stations, said, if I showed the COC and 

the above linked document, then they would not make a fine, however the other one

did say they would fine me.

I would then have to contact driving lawyer to get my money back.

So it could be a lot of hassle until the cops learn the rules.

 

My car has less than half the allowed limit.

 

I asked the police which document they would verify my car emissions on, they did not know about the  COC or  EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung.

 

I ask further, from the department that issued the rules ( https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:8f829800-de0c-4125-88ec-df585d90fe20/221222_Infoblatt-8.FS_LRP.pdf  ), which document the police should check, to determine the car emissions.

 

 

[scook17 292]

17 hours ago, yesterday said:

 

As said above, it said in this document.

 

 

https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:8f829800-de0c-4125-88ec-df585d90fe20/221222_Infoblatt-8.FS_LRP.pdf   Seems to be the place were this rule is, Bottom of the last page on the left had side of the page

 

Here is a picture of the exception text, from the link to the document 

 

I went on Saturday, to 3 police stations in Munich. 

Non of the police knew about this exception, after talking about it for 

some time, 2 out of 3 police stations, said, if I showed the COC and 

the above linked document, then they would not make a fine, however the other one

did say they would fine me.

I would then have to contact driving lawyer to get my money back.

So it could be a lot of hassle until the cops learn the rules.

 

My car has less than half the allowed limit.

 

I asked the police which document they would verify my car emissions on, they did not know about the  COC or  EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung.

 

I ask further, from the department that issued the rules ( https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:8f829800-de0c-4125-88ec-df585d90fe20/221222_Infoblatt-8.FS_LRP.pdf  ), which document the police should check, to determine the car emissions.

 

Sorry I missed that section:

 

Can I retrofit my vehicle?

Vehicles with emission standards Euro 4/IV and Euro 5/V, which have a so-called nitrogen oxide reduction system with high reduction performance to comply with an emission value of less than 270 milligrams of nitrogen oxide per kilometer driven, are according to § 47 paragraph 4a sentence 2 number 2 BImSchG
exempt from traffic bans. To answer the question of whether your vehicle has a nitrogen oxide reduction system with high reduction performance.

 

The § 47 paragraph 4a sentence 2 number 2 BImSchG is here: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/bimschg/__47.html which reads:

 

(4a) Bans on motor vehicle traffic for motor vehicles with compression-ignition engines are generally only considered in areas where the annual average value of 50 micrograms of nitrogen dioxide per cubic meter of air has been exceeded because the immission limit value for nitrogen dioxide is exceeded. The following motor vehicles are exempt from traffic bans:

1. Motor vehicles of emission class Euro 6,

2. Motor vehicles in emission classes Euro 4 and Euro 5, provided that they are used in practical driving in corresponding application of Article 2 number 41 in conjunction with Annex IIIa of Commission Regulation (EC) No. 692/2008 of July 18, 2008 for the implementation and amendment of the regulation (EC) No. 715/2007 of the European Parliament and of the Council on type-approval of motor vehicles with regard to emissions from light passenger and commercial vehicles (Euro 5 and Euro 6) and on access to vehicle repair and maintenance information (OJ L 199 dated July 28, 2008, p. 1), which was last amended by Regulation (EU) 2017/1221 (OJ L 174 of July 7, 2017, p. 3), emit less than 270 milligrams of nitrogen oxides per kilometer,

...

6. Motor vehicles of emission class Euro VI

 

Presumably items 1 and 6 will be removed/amended in subsquent updates. If they select to remove item 1 or combine it into item 2, I guess is an open question.

[yesterday 2,045]

I found out that this will not work

That exception will not work, because that limit is related to the average CO2 your car emits, the Bold part in the last paragraph, the EG-Ubereinstimmungsbecheinung, shows the value for the car in idyll.

Having said that, I went to 3 police stations and asked them what they would check against it, 2 out 3 of them got it wrong, so maybe its worth getting, and hope if you get stopped the police guy does not know the rules well enough.

[yesterday 2,045]

Lots like the UK is rolling back on the ICE ban in 2030, like I always said it would.

The Germans and getting worried about the loss of the EU car business', how long will it be before the EU rolls back on the ICE ban by 2035 ??

[keith2011 2,707]

yesterday said Quote:- "Lots like the UK is rolling back on the ICE ban in 2030, like I always said it would."

If they keep rolling the ice ban back much further by the time it comes in ice's will no longer function as the fuel will evaporate too quickly in the high ambient temperatures. 😮

[MikeMelga 7,346]

Useless discussion, only laggard idiots will buy a non EV after 2030.
I'm against the ICE ban, because it won't be needed. It's just done to create anger on ICE owners.

[keith2011 2,707]

MikeMelga said:- Quote
"Useless discussion, only laggard idiots will buy a non EV after 2030."

Yes you hit the nail right on the head there, but it looks like the Tory government in the UK are saying they will also ease further restrictive motoring regulations, for example the 20 mph (30kmh) speed limit being applied in many residential streets in a further desperate effort to appeal to motorists and get a few more votes in the election next year. Hopefully such political pandering to the motoring pressure groups in the face of the bigger problem does not become general.
I do wonder though if we are seeing the start of the end of the car, in any form, as a practical form of transport. The high cost of EVs will surely put an end to the 2+ car families, particularly in cities and urban areas. Both charging infrastructure and/or the range of EVs will have to improve dramatically for long distance travel viability and anyway the cost of high speed train travel is already competitive. My wife recently travelled to Köln and back for a long weekend, the ticket, booked less than a month in advance cost less than the benzine her car would have used and the journey time was less. The €49,- ticket is already having an impact in reducing traffic in Munich and I suspect other areas, given good public transport, not using it at such low cost is a no brainer. There has been a massive loss of on street parking places in Munich due to the continued use of kerb side extensions of restaurants and bars etc, through road closures and turning the streets into children's playgrounds and gardens etc, EV charging points and not before time on street bike parking, not sure if its chicken and egg, and the 30 Kmh speed limit which has become much more general, but it is clear to me there are already fewer cars around but an awful lot more bicycles and E-bikes!

[yesterday 2,045]

Must admit, as a car driver and ex motor cycle rider, I generally like the 30kph zone in areas of houses/flat, bust town areas, because it generally increases the chance of people being hit by a car of surviving and it only costs a couple of minutes extra driving time.

I think if you want to travel from Munich to another major city trains are excellent, but there are a lot of villages, with only a bus a day, if you want to get to these places its just crap on public transport, cars are really the only way to get around.

You live in Munich, which is recognized as one of the worlds best public transportation systems in the world, so yes, it makes sense for some people not to have a car, But not every town/city has this, I do not really see why car ownership should reduce in hard to get to places, unless you force them by removing ICE cars. Then I guess you just will not travel so much, it will make some peoples lives just worse.

I also live in Munich, if I want to go skiing to Ischgl for a day, I can do it with a car, where you just cannot do it on public transport, in a reasonable time, an EV cannot do it also, the range is just not enough.

While I want to move to net zero, its going to cost a lot of poorer people a lot, as they probably will not be able to accept the higher costs and extra time.

While EV's are growing, in sales, they are still a fraction of cars sold at the moment, I heard about 14 %, even if we get to 50 % by 2050, it will be a magical. Tesla has not even said where it will build its next giga factory. then they have to build it.

You also have to know, EV's are mainly being sold to the rich western countries, except China. But most cars are sold in poorer counties to people who do not have much money, it will be hard for these people to afford an EV, look at India, they will continue with ICE, because ICE is cheaper.

[keith2011 2,707]

There is no question that there will be an ongoing need for personal motorised transport for people living in rural areas, it is simply not worthwhile to run or even subsidise a regular bus service that has low usage or demand.
That is not the issue though ICE's will be dead and gone sooner here in Europe and later in other parts of the world, but still gone, the issue is how to replace them? It remains to be seen if EVs will ever be cheap enough and have the range and/or charging infrastructure to make them a viable alternative. As for other cities around the world I suggest there is no reason why they cannot follow the lead of Munich/Germany Take a look at London for example, commuting to the city from my home town used to be a nightmare, packed like sardines into overcrowded infrequent trains that were often delayed but that has been transformed by the new cross rail Elisabeth line, the TFL and new longer Western Region trains will whisk you up there in comfort and less time. Unfortunately the cost of a 12 month season ticket for zones 1-6 is currently over €5,500, compare that to just €588,- for the €49,- ticket which also includes all of Germany, it is no wonder that people in urban areas of South East of England continue to use heavy polluting ICEs even in the face of the tolls in the ULEZ, the alternative is too expensive. Get the price of an alternative right and the problem goes away!
As for skiing trips if we continue the way we are you can forget about finding any snow in the Alps!