Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

412 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

Anyway, Tesla is not the only car maker making electric cars.  Actually the most popular electric car in Europe is French.

 

And I myself am more interested in Japanese e-cars.   Particularly Nissan and Honda because those are the ones that could reach low prices first.

 

I partially agree. The Nissan Leaf is good, but there is a major drawback, the 2018 version does not have battery active thermal management, meaning it creates a lot of issues for long rides.

 

Example: if the battery is hot (because there is no active thermal management), charge speed can be 10x slower! Another example: if the outside temperature is too cold (-10C), range drops to half, while on a Tesla there is no degradation for short trips and at maximum only loses 30%.

 

The Leaf 2019 will solve this issue.

 

Tesla has some incredible thermal management system, it is a single thermal circuit that connects battery, motor, electronics and air conditioning.

Example: cold air outside: the circuit will use heat from engine, electronics and distribuit it to air conditioned and battery. Extra heat can be generated by the battery through a resistor and fed into the system. With this they only lose 30% range on cold weather (-10C) compared to +50% from other brands.

Not only that, you can configure the car to warm up before leaving house, when it is connected to the plug, so for short trips there is minimum range loss (and the car is warm when you enter :) )

 

In fact, the Tesla is always keeping the temperature at optimal range, even when the car is "off". This is done to maximize battery life. It only stops doing it when battery level goes below 20%.

That is why Teslas only lose a small amount of battery range per year.

 

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

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New garages done in the past 4-6 years are obliged to have pre-installation of electric charging point.

But this charging issue is a problem of Germany. There is an EU directive that cities have to provide a large amount of charging spots and in Germany they don´t do much. I´ve only found a few in Munich.

 

In Portugal every shopping center or supermarket has a lot of plugs, for example.

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1 minute ago, MikeMelga said:

New garages done in the past 4-6 years are obliged to have pre-installation of electric charging point.

But this charging issue is a problem of Germany. There is an EU directive that cities have to provide a large amount of charging spots and in Germany they don´t do much. I´ve only found a few in Munich.

 

In Portugal every shopping center or supermarket has a lot of plugs, for example.

I wonder how many people here live in a house thats less than 6 yrs old...

 

Of course Portugal has all these charging points as they are years, if not decades ahead of most of europe with their use/management of Solar power..   

But guess what?  It aint goin' to happen in Frankfurt!

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8 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

/y@70 grand plus...   ??

 

Fuck that for a game of soldiers..

When you're a banker in FFM, earning 500 K/y, it's a fucking steal. For others, screw them, let them walk.

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I don't live in a house, but in a flat which is less than 4 years old. We don't have charging points in the garage. The blocks of flats that are being built across from me offer them as an option for €500.

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I'm trying to imagine a future with only electric cars. what will fueling stations look like on motorways and in towns. Right now uou stop, max ten minutes to fill the tank , pay and leave. Hundreds if not thousands of cars per day. What happens when you need two hours to charge the batteries?

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Hooray!!  Someone who actually sees things as they will be!!

 

just look at any Petrol station that drops their fuel price by 3 or 4 cents more than the neighbouring station!!  Queues a mile long just to save a euro on a full tank... 

 

Most of the E-cars will be Automatic transmission... so its harder or impossible to tow or push a broken down vehicle...

 

The ADAC etc wont have a clue where to start looking for faults...   

 

Flat battery... Central locking...the fucker wont open...!!  

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59 minutes ago, rodisi said:

I'm trying to imagine a future with only electric cars. what will fueling stations look like on motorways and in towns. Right now uou stop, max ten minutes to fill the tank , pay and leave. Hundreds if not thousands of cars per day. What happens when you need two hours to charge the batteries?

 

Yes, exactly. This is a big problem in the whole concept. The only solution proposed so far is to have an automatic battery swap stations. But even then how do you handle peak periods for customers getting refueled? How do you store all the that battery inventory underground? 

 

What about the cost of electric in germany? it costs 0.33 US cents per KWh , whereas in the USA it is 0.18 per KWh. Germany has decided no nuclear energy. Renewable energy is a great idea, but investment is going to be super expensive and that investment will show up in rising electricity prices.

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1 hour ago, rodisi said:

I'm trying to imagine a future with only electric cars. what will fueling stations look like on motorways and in towns. Right now uou stop, max ten minutes to fill the tank , pay and leave. Hundreds if not thousands of cars per day. What happens when you need two hours to charge the batteries?

 

The electric car myths and FUDs... A Tesla charges up to 80% in 30 minutes and can transverse Europe using the Supercharger network.

 

5c33ae8822df3_TeslaSupercharger.jpg.eed8

 

 

In Germany you have to be lucky to fill up a ICE car and pay on a busy day in under ten minutes..

 

Usually longer road trips combine a fill up of the car with a bite to eat, something to drink, a loo break and a stretch of the legs. So no problem there. Add to that the smug satisfaction of actually saving the planet instead of spewing petrochemical exhaust fumes and killing the planet and its inhabitants, I see only a win win situation.

 

Soon we will look at ICE car drivers the same way we look at smokers. A filthy habit best kicked ;) 

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1 hour ago, Smaug said:

I don't live in a house, but in a flat which is less than 4 years old. We don't have charging points in the garage. The blocks of flats that are being built across from me offer them as an option for €500.

They need pre-installation, i.e., if needed, you can easily install it.

 

1 hour ago, rodisi said:

I'm trying to imagine a future with only electric cars. what will fueling stations look like on motorways and in towns. Right now uou stop, max ten minutes to fill the tank , pay and leave. Hundreds if not thousands of cars per day. What happens when you need two hours to charge the batteries?

Tesla takes 20 min for 50% charge, 40min for 80% charge. You only need 80% charge if you are on a long trip, which means you are probably having lunch, which means the fueling stations of the future will be a mix of caffe and restaurant.

 

Or maybe not, because faster chargers will come, probably reducing it to half the time.

 

 

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Just now, MikeMelga said:

They need pre-installation, i.e., if needed, you can easily install it.

 

Tesla takes 20 min for 50% charge, 40min for 80% charge. You only need 80% charge if you are on a long trip, which means you are probably having lunch, which means the fueling stations of the future will be a mix of caffe and restaurant.

 

Or maybe not, because faster chargers will come, probably reducing it to half the time.

 

 

 

 

Or what Mike said :) 

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20 minutes ago, wien4ever said:

 

Yes, exactly. This is a big problem in the whole concept. The only solution proposed so far is to have an automatic battery swap stations. But even then how do you handle peak periods for customers getting refueled? How do you store all the that battery inventory underground? 

Battery swap idea is currently dead. Read above, charging times are much faster than FUD guys state.

 

 

Quote

What about the cost of electric in germany? it costs 0.33 US cents per KWh , whereas in the USA it is 0.18 per KWh. Germany has decided no nuclear energy. Renewable energy is a great idea, but investment is going to be super expensive and that investment will show up in rising electricity prices.

You can micro generate at home. As I've said before, 8-16sqm of solar panels + Tesla power wall are more than enough for self sustainability. Investment pays off quite fast, especially if you have 2 EV. Add a heat pump to the mix and you have very cheap heating too.

I don't own a house here, otherwise that would be my plan within the next 2-3 years.

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3 minutes ago, Janx Spirit said:

Or what Mike said :) 

Forgot one thing: most people just need to charge at home, which is enough for daily commute.

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3 minutes ago, MikeMelga said:

Forgot one thing: most people just need to charge at home, which is enough for daily commute.

That or destination charging is an option too, ie at the office, supermarket (Aldi has solar powered free charging in Germering).

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I also think that several companies/office buildings will either offer charge to employees or at some point it becomes even mandatory by law.

If politicians were true about electrification, they would keep finanzamt out of this and let employees charge for free. Would be a good tax/social security-free benefit for employees.

 

Charging at work and at home will make most of the use cases in the future, so charging stations will be more for long trips or for those without the infrastructure. So no big waiting lines there.

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15 hours ago, theGman said:

 

I'm not sure. It seems that Munich traffic lights are controlled and coordinated. But it seems that the coordinator is a sadistic bastard who hates people and either wants everyone to constantly wait or to drive fast enough to run over a few kids and elderly each day. The traffic light timing here is worse than random.

 

 

I've never actually driven in Munich, and when I've been I think I only used public transport.  So I can't comment on the lights there.

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14 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

...

Example: if the battery is hot (because there is no active thermal management), charge speed can be 10x slower! ...

...

 

I thought batteries were better when they were hot? 

 

 

10 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

They need pre-installation, i.e., if needed, you can easily install it.

 

Tesla takes 20 min for 50% charge, 40min for 80% charge. You only need 80% charge if you are on a long trip, which means you are probably having lunch, which means the fueling stations of the future will be a mix of caffe and restaurant.

 

Or maybe not, because faster chargers will come, probably reducing it to half the time.

 

 

 

 

I understand what you are saying, and in a lot of cases this is true.  But when we go back to the UK because we have a ferry/eurotunnel to catch then actually we don't stop for anywhere near this long.  We stop twice for toilet break and to swap driver and we take our own food.  So we would have to plan at extra 1.5 - 2 hours for charging because of this.

 

But hopefully things get better in the future.  If we could stop just once for longer then it would be OK.

 

But I've heard of problems with other EVs (wasn't Telsa, but I can't remember the brand.  Maybe Renault?)  where they don't charge nowhere near as well as they claimed, and there were stories that what was supposed to be a 20-30 min quick charge took > 2 hours.  If you have a ferry/eurotunnel to catch then this doesn't work!  

 

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15 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I partially agree. The Nissan Leaf is good, but there is a major drawback, the 2018 version does not have battery active thermal management, meaning it creates a lot of issues for long rides.

 

Example: if the battery is hot (because there is no active thermal management), charge speed can be 10x slower! Another example: if the outside temperature is too cold (-10C), range drops to half, while on a Tesla there is no degradation for short trips and at maximum only loses 30%.

 

The Leaf 2019 will solve this issue.

 

I won't deny that Tesla's technology is the best at the moment in the e-car industry.  My problem is basically a budget problem.   I have never in my life bought a brand new car because I think it is a very bad business decision, if you buy a 1 year old car you can save up to 1/4 of the price of the car.   And I think spending more than 20K on a car is outrageous, to me cars are tools to bring you from point A to point B in a convenient way, not social status, or anything else.  I like nice cars only because of the feeling of driving nice cars.   So since the used market of the e-cars is pretty much in diapers and they seem to retain the price like Apple products the whole thing is a game changer.   I am still not willing to pay for a car what I could use to buy a small apartment and make some money out of it.    So that's why I've been following cheaper alternatives and waiting until they check all my boxes.

 

 

12 hours ago, SpiderPig said:

Hooray!!  Someone who actually sees things as they will be!!

 

just look at any Petrol station that drops their fuel price by 3 or 4 cents more than the neighbouring station!!  Queues a mile long just to save a euro on a full tank... 

 

Most of the E-cars will be Automatic transmission... so its harder or impossible to tow or push a broken down vehicle...

 

The ADAC etc wont have a clue where to start looking for faults...   

 

Flat battery... Central locking...the fucker wont open...!!  

 

You are still thinking in the old way, of course there will be change.   The point is what changes are for the good and which not.    Anyway, it is pointless to fight it, it will happen anyway.   And then people keep complaining about things that most probably will change in the future and will for sure improve.  Or they simply complain about things that are blatantly wrong, like charging times, nowadays technology allows you to fast charge in 20 or 30 minutes.

 

27 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

But when we go back to the UK because we have a ferry/eurotunnel to catch then actually we don't stop for anywhere near this long.  We stop twice for toilet break and to swap driver and we take our own food.  So we would have to plan at extra 1.5 - 2 hours for charging because of this.

 

 

What a little inconvenience once or twice a year when you are reducing your fuel and maintenance costs to less than half of what an ICE cost.  And I put only half just to be pessimistic, because in some cases it is reduced to 1/4 of the ICE's costs.

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49 minutes ago, dj_jay_smith said:

I understand what you are saying, and in a lot of cases this is true.  But when we go back to the UK because we have a ferry/eurotunnel to catch then actually we don't stop for anywhere near this long.  We stop twice for toilet break and to swap driver and we take our own food.  So we would have to plan at extra 1.5 - 2 hours for charging because of this.

 

Have you considered other forms of travel rather than taking your car back to the UK? You can get fast trains (ICE & Eurostar) from Munich to St Pancras for as little as €69 per person each way and possibly cheaper from stations further north, I would think that would be quicker than the car and ferry and you could always rent a car in the UK with the advantage of having the steering wheel on the correct side!

1 hour ago, dj_jay_smith said:

 

I've never actually driven in Munich, and when I've been I think I only used public transport.  So I can't comment on the lights there.

There seems to be a major difference depending on the time of day, up to about 9 pm assuming you can reach the speed limit every traffic light seems to be at red, later they all turn green and driving becomes a breeze!

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