Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

[Krieg 15,112]

Plus inductive charging is very inefficient. 

[murphaph 9,865]

Wireless EV charging has already been deployed in real world applications. It's surprisingly far along and surprisingly efficient:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/09/whats-the-state-of-wireless-ev-charging/

[yesterday 2,044]

I favour the battery swapping model, as you can change a battery in less than 5 mins and drive it until almost flat and then repeat the procedure, its more similar to filling ICE car. Without the dis advantage of having to wait around for the EV to fill up.

 

Its already in roll out in China and some parts of the US.

 

https://thechinaproject.com/2022/09/23/battery-swapping-is-the-future-of-electric-vehicles/#:~:text=Although%20battery%20swapping%20is%20still,original%20price%20of%20the%20EV.

 

Apart from the fast fill, some places offer the choice of a small battery change or a big battery change, depending on if you know you will be driving around town for the next day or 2 or your driving a lot further away for eg holiday. Saving weight on the car, means you you less electricity to power it a long. 

 

 

[Krieg 15,112]

4 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Wireless EV charging has already been deployed in real world applications. It's surprisingly far along and surprisingly efficient:

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/09/whats-the-state-of-wireless-ev-charging/

 

Looks indeed promising.  Specially charging while driving, maybe the far far future would be that some parts or a lane of the Autobahn allows on the fly charging.

[murphaph 9,865]

59 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Looks indeed promising.  Specially charging while driving, maybe the far far future would be that some parts or a lane of the Autobahn allows on the fly charging.

I believe this will happen in the long term. Most cars will be driving themselves by then on the Autobahn for sure, so it will make sense to have cars stay in convoy, driving at an optimal speed for charging on the move in certain sections of the Autobahn. There is no need to deploy these things along entire lengths of the network as that ignores the fact that batteries can store charge. The railway already uses this technology, with charging of on board batteries taking place at stations and other intermediate locations. They will probably just be installed at regular intervals, possibly as extensions to rest areas, where passive charging loops would be installed under the parking spaces anyway.

[keith2011 2,707]

2 hours ago, yesterday said:

I favour the battery swapping model, as you can change a battery in less than 5 mins and drive it until almost flat and then repeat the procedure, its more similar to filling ICE car. Without the dis advantage of having to wait around for the EV to fill up.

I can foresee some problems with that, would anyone want to swap out the batteries from their brand new Tesla for a set that could be 5 years old and no longer capable of holding more than 70% charge?

[murphaph 9,865]

6 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

I can foresee some problems with that, would anyone want to swap out the batteries from their brand new Tesla for a set that could be 5 years old and no longer capable of holding more than 70% charge?

It wouldn't work like that I expect. You would buy (or lease) the car without the battery. The battery would be taken from a common pool that you would pay separately to access. Probably paying for the amount of charge on the battery you are taking each time you take a swap unit. The weights and measures people will need a whole new department to check that you are getting the charge you are paying for. I honestly think that long term the swap battery thing will fall by the wayside as passive wireless charging takes over. Swapping batteries is an interim solution to the lack of convenient charging options but it completely ignores the great benefit of EVs: It's relatively easy to transport electricity. Making people go to a place to physically swap a battery has no long term future once passive wireless charging becomes a thing.

[yesterday 2,044]

ok, I know its not perfect, but think it will be easier to install, because you can use the same space a Petrol station occupies now for the swapping machine.

 

I think its a lot of work ripping up large sections of the Motorway and B road to install the coils order for the system to work. 

 

Also if an EV takes say 30 mins to charge, then you are going at 100kph, you need to dig up up a lot of motorway to fit the coils in the ground, before the car can start and finish charging. 

 

Maybe they can be fitted before the re surfacing of the autobahn is done, but this is still going to take a long time to install, all those sections of road will need high power lines in the near to the road surface. Also when the road is re ripped up and cleared before the new surface is put down, it will probably destroy the old electro magnets, so I guess you have replace everything.

 

Any one know, what the effect of very powerful electro magnets would be on people who have pace makers sitting in the car?

 

 

[murphaph 9,865]

You don't need to rip up any motorway to fit these things. They would probably only be fitted during a routine pavement renewal, which is about every 20 years. There are always large sections of the Autobahn network that are being rehabilitated. It's a constant process. 

 

The health concerns I am sure have been addressed in the creation of the standard. I would be amazed if health concerns weren't the top item on the priorities list. 

 

Again, you don't need to fully charge the vehicle, just top it up enough to get it to the next charging zone. But look, the charge on the fly stuff is still quite far away IMO. Long before that we will however see passive charging at all rest stops along the Autobahn so taking a wizz will allow your car to top up a little. Taking a lunch break will see the car charge up pretty much completely. The current issue is really that there aren't enough charging stations. If that problem was elegantly solved with wireless charging in every rest area, the range issue is almost solved. The charge on the fly stuff is really really in the "nice to have" category that is the very final part of the EV puzzle. 

[Krieg 15,112]

Swapping batteries would be probably too complicated with current battery management systems and climate control running 1000 hoses with coolant everywhere in the car.

[keith2011 2,707]

Charging on the fly would be very interesting but would,  I think need to happen first! I can't see induction passive charging taking off  on its own, given that EVs would need an additional receiver vs the simplicity and cheapness of simply plugging a cable in. It could end up as a chicken or egg situation in which nothing gets hatched.

[Eric7 555]

35 minutes ago, Krieg said:

Swapping batteries would be probably too complicated with current battery management systems and climate control running 1000 hoses with coolant everywhere in the car.

 

It would need to be part of the design from the start, like with NIO. Forget about adapting existing EVs to use the system.
Where I see the battery swap idea falling down is that unless there is a standard for batteries (size, connections, compatible software. etc.) then every manufacturer or possibly even each car model would need its own battery swap station, or the battery swap station must have the capability of swapping a variety of different batteries, from different manufacturers.

 

I think the charging question is actually moot. Charging rates are getting faster and faster and within a few years will be no longer an issue.
Induction charging built into roads is something more for the future where every vehicle is an EV.

[yesterday 2,044]

The way I look at it,

 

EV's currently charge with a cable, almost everywhere

else some people are using battery swap options in China and in the US, and is expanding.

 

Nobody is currently using induction charging, maybe apart from a few test tracks

 

So battery swap has first mover advantage ( after cable), but of course I accept that can change. I think probably we will just continue to use the cable, because people do not like to pay more for things and the introduction of a new system will of course cost more.

 

I know in the future, if I can pay less to use the cable than drive on the induction hob spot, then I probably would choose the cable.

 

Well we have all looked into our crystal ball, and come out with different predictions, only time will tell, could well be that due to cost of swapping machines or cost of installation of the induction coils that we stick with the cable.!!!!

 

@Krieg, what do you mean by "  probably too complicated with current battery management systems and climate control running 1000 hoses with coolant everywhere in the car. "

 

As said already, China already has 1000 battery swapping machine running across that country, so it does work

 

https://thedriven.io/2022/11/08/ev-battery-swap-technology-continues-to-race-ahead-in-2022/

[slammer 889]

2 hours ago, yesterday said:

 

 

Any one know, what the effect of very powerful electro magnets would be on people who have pace makers sitting in the car?

 

 

Non, you are sitting in a Faraday cage. But on the fly charging was talked to death a few oodles of yonks ago with the result that although it was feasible, it is simply not scalable in any way, shape or form. Heck, it was done in the fifties for busses, along with the gyrobus, (now there is a technology that needs a comeback) All these Stammtisch solutions are just that. Nice to think about, but of no practical use.

[MikeMelga 7,346]

15 hours ago, jeba said:

1 Liter of Diesel equals about 10 kWh of energy. According to https://www.clever-tanken.de/tankstelle_liste?lat=49.9781033959883&lon=9.9689146686247&ort=97450+Arnstein&spritsorte=3&r=5

the price of Diesel is about €1.7/l. So 1 kWh of Diesel costs about 17 Cents. Even if you assume that EVs are 50% more efficient than Diesel cars their fuel cost is higher.

That's not how it works. You need to take in account vehicle efficiency. Your math is wrong. The math is done at cost per km. It's wrong to convert kWh to liters.

[MikeMelga 7,346]

12 hours ago, LeonG said:

 

I can't do math so EV's look expensive. 

 

I'm driving the ICE car that I bought new for under 12k ca. 5 and a half years ago.  My road  tax is 48€ per year.  Over 5.5 years I've spent almost 2500 on yearly inspections, wiper blades, lightbulbs etc.  So if we said my ICE car were now worthless, I will have spent 224€ per month to own that car.  However, it isn't worthless.  Should be fine for a few more years which will bring my monthly cost down.

 

Had I bought a Tesla, I'd have a car note of 500+ for years and we aren't even at inspections and wiper blades yet.

 

Btw, none of my friends is in the market for a 30k+ car.  I even know people who drive a roller in the summer and hitch rides in winter.  You tell them 36k is a good deal.  They'd probably laugh... or cry.

 

Congrats, your life standard is below average.

That's what anecdotal evidence gives you: crap statistics.

[wien4ever 447]

Assessment of the Extra Capacity Required of Alternative Energy Electrical Power Systems to Completely Replace Fossil Fuels

https://tupa.gtk.fi/raportti/arkisto/42_2021.pdf (long version)

https://mcusercontent.com/72459de8ffe7657f347608c49/files/be87ecb0-46b0-9c31-886a-6202ba5a9b63/Assessment_to_phase_out_fossil_fuels_Summary.pdf (summary version)

This report addresses the challenges around the ambitious task of phasing out fossil fuels (oil, gas, & coal) that are currently used in vehicle Internal Combustion Engine technology (ICE) and for electrical power generation.

...

The general plan can be summarized as follows: ICE vehicles are to be phased out and substituted with Electric Vehicles (EV) and Hydrogen Fuel cell powered (H2-Cell) vehicles. EV’s are to be powered with lithium ion batteries. Coal- and gas-fired electrical power generation is to be phased out and substituted with by solar photovoltaic, wind turbine, hydroelectric, nuclear, geothermal or biowaste to energy power stations. Knowledge around known mineral resources suggests the raw materials required for the manufacture and servicing of these renewable technologies will remain truly global in nature. There will not be one nation or geographic region that can be truly self-sufficient. The focus of this report therefore was to model the viability of the new global ecosystem using calculations made specifically for the three significant global players: the United States (US) economy; the European (EU-28) economy; and the Chinese economy.

...

Calculations reported here suggest that the total additional non-fossil fuel electrical power annual capacity to be added to the global grid will need to be around 37 670.6 TWh. If the same non-fossil fuel energy mix as that reported in 2018 is assumed, then this translates into an extra 221 594 new power plants will be needed to be constructed and commissioned.

To put this in context, the total power plant fleet in 2018 (all types including fossil fuel plants) was only 46 423 stations. This large number reflects the lower Energy Returned on Energy Invested (ERoEI) ratio of renewable power compared to current fossil fuels.

...

Also, current policy targets (for example European Parliament) hope to have 30% of the global energy and transport system to be renewable by the year 2030. This is only 8.5 years away, and the incubation time for the construction of a new power plant can range between 2 to 5 years (or 20 years for a nuclear plant

...

Current expectations are that global industrial businesses will replace a complex industrial energy ecosystem that took more than a century to build. The current system was built with the support of the highest calorifically dense source of energy the world has ever known (oil), in cheap abundant quantities, with easily available credit, and seemingly unlimited mineral resources. The replacement needs to be done at a time when there is comparatively very expensive energy, a fragile finance system saturated in debt, not enough minerals, and an unprecedented world population, embedded in a deteriorating natural environment. Most challenging of all, this has to be done within a few decades. It is the author’s opinion, based on the new calculations presented here, that this will likely not go fully to as planned.

 

In conclusion, this report suggests that replacing the existing fossil fuel powered system (oil, gas, and coal), using renewable technologies, such as solar panels or wind turbines, will not be possible for the entire global human population. There is simply just not enough time, nor resources to do this by the current target set by the World’s most influential nations. What may be required, therefore, is a significant reduction of societal demand for all resources, of all kinds. This implies a very different social contract and a radically different system of governance to what is in place today. Inevitably, this leads to the conclusion that the existing renewable energy sectors and the EV technology systems are merely steppingstones to something else, rather than the final solution. It is recommended that some thought be given to this and what that something else might be.

[murphaph 9,865]

38 minutes ago, slammer said:

Non, you are sitting in a Faraday cage. But on the fly charging was talked to death a few oodles of yonks ago with the result that although it was feasible, it is simply not scalable in any way, shape or form. Heck, it was done in the fifties for busses, along with the gyrobus, (now there is a technology that needs a comeback) All these Stammtisch solutions are just that. Nice to think about, but of no practical use.

You better tell Denso to stop so. They have already created an on-the-fly charging test track. It is not production ready but according to this article they are not the only company working on this technology. I would actually be surprised if in-ground charging in car parks and at the kerbside doesn't replace cables before cables have even got off the ground. The on-the-fly stuff will come, but later.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Japan-tests-roads-for-EV-wireless-charging-with-2025-goal

[MikeMelga 7,346]

6 hours ago, yesterday said:

I favour the battery swapping model, as you can change a battery in less than 5 mins and drive it until almost flat and then repeat the procedure, its more similar to filling ICE car. Without the dis advantage of having to wait around for the EV to fill up.

 

That's the worst charging method. The car will be much heavier, weaker, and you need 10% of the batteries to be on hold for the next customer.

It's stupid from ALL perspectives. Worst, you end up saving no time on the charging process.

It's the perfect example of bad engineering: focus on one single problem and ignore all the consequences.

[MadAxeMurderer 6,322]

2 hours ago, slammer said:

Non, you are sitting in a Faraday cage. But on the fly charging was talked to death a few oodles of yonks ago with the result that although it was feasible, it is simply not scalable in any way, shape or form. Heck, it was done in the fifties for busses, along with the gyrobus, (now there is a technology that needs a comeback) All these Stammtisch solutions are just that. Nice to think about, but of no practical use.

Faraday cages do not shield magnetic fields. They are simply a conductive cage that equalises electrostatic potential (voltage).