Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

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31 minutes ago, Krieg said:

What a surprise, rich people buy most of the new cars.

 

I think you read the left table wrong, Mittelklasse, etc describes the car not the peope (Mittelklasse is VW, Oberklasse is Porsche, etc).

 

In my experience "everyday" rich people mostly do not buy new, expensive cars - why pay the depreciation  tax when a properly serviced 2-3 years old car is just as good? Those brand new cars on the street are mostly leased or employee cars (also in that case mostly leased).

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31 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

Smallest car as of July 2022 is 22,000 Euro, I think is not correct

 

https://www.dacia.de/modelle/sandero/preise-versionen.html    is 12,350 Euro 

 

 

Average prices are average prices, right?

 

Furthermore if you take a look at all the new Sandero TCe 90's for sale (which is among the cheapest), you'll see that there are very few available at the list price and that most start around 15-17k. Those base prices are just advertised to suck you in, not to mention mandatory Überführungskosten, etc.

 

That lowest price class still only represents 6,9% of new car sales.

 

And don't forget, 2/3 of new car sales are company cars! The German tax structure makes company cars very affordable which means that they're accessible to a large range of employees. This in itself is a massive subsidy.

 

FWIW I'm not an EV evangelist. They're stupid expensive and the current batteries are ridiculous (mining impact, life span, etc.) despite lithium ion and LiFePO3 taking great strides in the last decades.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, mtbiking said:

 

I'd say that's temporary until corporations and rental companies transition to an electrical fleet -> I don't see the tax saving /employee prestige /whatever model of buying new cars in bulk and selling them after 1-3 years  as "almost new" going away. That's by the way how I've always bought my cars.. A private person paying €60,000 for a new BMW or Audi is insane in my view.

 

While I agree with what you said, I still do not see in the near future the possibility of brand new EVs that cost 11k and do the same as a current 11k ICE.     And there is the chance as well that low end EVs have shorter lifespan than ICEs because at some point swapping the battery is not financially viable, as it is happening already with old Nissan Leafs and Renault Zoes.

 

Small EVs are a challenge, because small cars can have only smaller batteries, so they will have limited range, and they will suck even more during winter.

 

I support EVs but I don't drink their Kool-Aid, I accept all the compromises and understand that they are not a solution for everybody and that probably we are creating a problem for the middle and lower classes.

 

Just now, keith2011 said:

 

Not until 2035 and by then who knows what an EV and the electricity to charge it will cost.

 

WAT?  so you believe that it is poor people right now buying the expensive cars?   And they will be able to buy expensive cars until 2035.  What the heck are you talking about?

 

1 minute ago, mtbiking said:

 

I think you read the left table wrong, Mittelklasse, etc describes the car not the peope (Mittelklasse is VW, Oberklasse is Porsche, etc).

 

In my experience "everyday" rich people mostly do not buy new, expensive cars - why pay the depreciation  tax when a properly serviced 2-3 years old car is just as good? Those brand new cars on the street are mostly leased or employee cars (also in that case mostly leased).

 

Of course I am reading the table correctly.  But in my book, if you have the money to buy an average car (35k) you are not poor.   Average prices don't mean crap to the people with income that are far from those prices.

 

However, you might have a point that such average prices are influenced by company cars, so the situation is even worse.

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7 minutes ago, Krieg said:

 

Of course I am reading the table correctly.  But in my book, if you have the money to buy an average car (35k) you are not poor.   Average prices don't mean crap to the people with income that are far from those prices.

 

However, you might have a point that such average prices are influenced by company cars, so the situation is even worse.

 

OK, sorry.  I sometimes think that leasing contracts are another way of transfering wealth from the middle class to the wealthy -> the former think that they too deserve a new, expensive car (like the rich) and the the "rich" themselves buy those depreciated cars some years down the road and invested the €€ more profitably somewhere else.

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16 minutes ago, Krieg said:

WAT?  so you believe that it is poor people right now buying the expensive cars?   And they will be able to buy expensive cars until 2035.  What the heck are you talking about?

 

What the hell are you talking about, there is nothing to stop anyone who has the money from buying an 11k new ICE car (if they really exist) or a used car today, as 2035 approaches and after how do you know there won't be new and used EVs for around for the then equivalent of today's 11k?

Do you really believe that the only 45k+ Tesla EVs will be on the market in 2035+?:blink:

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1 minute ago, keith2011 said:

 

What the hell are you talking about, there is nothing to stop anyone who has the money from buying an 11k new car (if they really exist) or a used car today, as 2035 approaches and after how do you know there won't be new and used EVs for around for the then equivalent of today's 11k?

Do you really believe that the only 45k+ Tesla EVs will be on the market in 2035+?:blink:

 

You ninja edited your comment where you said something that didn't make sense at all as a reply to my post that you quoted.

 

It is ok, you can't pretend it never happened.  No problem.

 

 

P.S., The 11k ICE car is the Dacia Sandero, which used to cost 7k before Covid.   My crystal ball is broken, so I don't know what will happen in 2035, but I do not believe there will be an equivalent to the Dacia Sandero in terms of price that can do the same as the Dacia Sandero (decent size, decent range, decent heating for winter, etc).

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15 minutes ago, Krieg said:

It is ok, you can't pretend it never happened.  No problem.

I'm not trying to, sorry this forum is horribly prone to reinserting old quotes and comments, which is what happened so I edited it out but since you can't add a quote directly into a submitted post via the edit mode I had no choice but to delete the incorrect one and repost.

Sorry to hear your crystal ball is broken, maybe as an alternative you could look backwards, I am sure there was a time when horses were cheaper but smellier in the cities than ICE vehicles.:D

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I think you do not get the point.  I am pro EVs, so you are barking at the wrong tree.    I only point out that they are still not a solution for everyone, EVs have lots of compromises (which I am willing to accept myself), and that I understand they are creating a problem for the low income class.    All these started because the usual Kool-Aid drinker said that the problem is because we can't do math and EV's TOC is at the end cheaper, which might be true when compared to an ICE in the same class, but it is not true for everyone because cheap EVs do not even exist, and the only one that is kind of cheap, which, is another Dacia (the Spring), it kind of a crappy car and super limited, so not really a solution for everyone, it is basically a city car, and a bad one.

 

And for some of the problems EVs create you do not have to wait until 2035, you can see it already, as I mentioned, the lifespan of the low end ones is until now kind of crappy.

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I don't have a crystal ball but I am sure that car manufacturers will realize that there is a market for cheap EV's for cheap or broke customers and there will be more available.

 

When I bought my ICE car in 2017, range of a cheaper EV would have been a problem for me plus lack of chargers.  Today, range wouldn't be a problem but lack of chargers still would be.  I'm sure that there will be more chargers too in the future.

 

In the area I live in, it would be tricky because we have a lot of apartment buildings without assigned parking and a high percentage of seniors who would not be able to charge at work.  If supermarkets were to offer charging, that would help.  But still, a whole neighbourhood fighting over a couple of spaces.

 

I don't have a problem with EV's.  Just saying it's not convenient for me at the moment.  I am sure I will have one at some point.

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24 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

 

Who said for free?

He didn´t.

However why should supermarkets supply EV chargers, I don´t recall people demanding them to supply fuel for ICEs?

If you make charging profitable enough then businesses will jump on it but then you lose the cheapness of charging an EV plus point.

30 minutes ago, LeonG said:

I don't have a problem with EV's.  Just saying it's not convenient for me at the moment.  I am sure I will have one at some point.

This is the whole argument on this thread and pretty much everyone agrees except a certain head stuck up his own arse person.

I would willingly drive an EV, in fact for the sort of journeys I would make it would be pretty much perfect, however, the cost puts them way out of my reach.

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2 minutes ago, Keleth said:

However why should supermarkets supply EV chargers, I don´t recall people demanding them to supply fuel for ICEs?

 

Installing a few chargers as opposed to digging up the whole parking lot for fuel tanks and then having huge trucks delivering fuel in said parking area are 2 entirely different things. Parking space is at a premium in and around the city.

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1 hour ago, Krieg said:

I think you do not get the point.  I am pro EVs, so you are barking at the wrong tree.    I only point out that they are still not a solution for everyone, EVs have lots of compromises (which I am willing to accept myself), and that I understand they are creating a problem for the low income class.    All these started because the usual Kool-Aid drinker said that the problem is because we can't do math and EV's TOC is at the end cheaper, which might be true when compared to an ICE in the same class, but it is not true for everyone because cheap EVs do not even exist, and the only one that is kind of cheap, which, is another Dacia (the Spring), it kind of a crappy car and super limited, so not really a solution for everyone, it is basically a city car, and a bad one.

 

And for some of the problems EVs create you do not have to wait until 2035, you can see it already, as I mentioned, the lifespan of the low end ones is until now kind of crappy.

 

Cheap EVs may not exist now but history strongly suggests that technology can resolve issues of convenience and price if there is demand. Look at the mobile phone, how many people could afford and were willing to accept the inconvenience of using those first heavy old bricks with short battery life and lack of initial cell coverage, yet these days they have  vastly more features are affordable, light weight, small and highly convenient and cheap to use pretty much over the entire world.

You appear to me to be  one of those tree huggers who use "for the protection of others" excuse as the reason for their refusal to accept change!

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Supermarkets with enough space do voluntarily provide petrol stations and usually sell the fuel very cheaply to attract customers to the supermarket itself. It's less common here because supermarkets are rarely large enough but Kaufland does it at a few locations around Berlin for sure. In the UK it's very common for supermarkets to sell cheaper petrol and diesel. They will do the same for EVs to attract customers and it will be possible for even small German discount supermarkets to offer charging (probably at a discount) for EVs. Yes, the electricity infrastructure will need upgrading in many places to cope with the extra demand but it's essentially an unavoidable expense at this stage. It's the road we are going down. In fact there is a standard for wireless (inductive) charging of EVs that has been developed by several manufacturers under the auspices of the Society of Automotive Engineers (more commonly known as the SAE, often seen on bottles of engine oil, SAE-30 for example). Major companies like Nippon Denso are actively working on this technology. In future your EV will charge just by parking it in the supermarket. You will not plug anything in. It will all happen in the background. A massive advantage for EVs as this sort of refuelling is not practically possible with any other energy source.

 

As regards "cheap" EVs. I think the cheapest new EV available in Europe is the Dacia Spring, with prices starting at around 18k. Dacia will have profited from Renault's now extensive experience in battery EVs, Renault/Nissan being somewhat of a pioneer in the field.

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9 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

 

Cheap EVs may not exist now but history strongly suggests that technology can resolve issues of convenience and price if there is demand. Look at the mobile phone, how many people could afford and were willing to accept the inconvenience of using those first heavy old bricks with short battery life and lack of initial cell coverage, yet these days they have  vastly more features are affordable, light weight, small and highly convenient and cheap to use pretty much over the entire world.

You appear to me to be  one of those tree huggers who use "for the protection of others" excuse as the reason for their refusal to accept change!

 

Of course there is the other example, the cure for the common cold. The British government sponsored research into find a cure for the common cold for over 100 years, and then as part of some cut backs the research program was cancelled...  :D

 

The problem with EV batteries is that they are made with a high level of rare earth materials, which tend to be expensive. This technology of the current lithium batteries is not new, they were invented between 1980 and 1991, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery, they are probably as developed as they are going to get. 

Research into other types of batteries is on going, but it could go on for many many years as well.

 

I do not have crystal ball, so got no idea if we get a better solution or not.

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4 minutes ago, murphaph said:

Supermarkets with enough space do voluntarily provide petrol stations and usually sell the fuel very cheaply to attract customers to the supermarket itself. It's less common here because supermarkets are rarely large enough but Kaufland does it at a few locations around Berlin for sure. In the UK it's very common for supermarkets to sell cheaper petrol and diesel.

 

Same in the U.S. where they have acres of land to use.

 

5 minutes ago, murphaph said:

In fact there is a standard for wireless (inductive) charging of EVs that has been developed by several manufacturers under the auspices of the Society of Automotive Engineers (more commonly known as the SAE, often seen on bottles of engine oil, SAE-30 for example). Major companies like Nippon Denso are actively working on this technology. In future your EV will charge just by parking it in the supermarket. You will not plug anything in. It will all happen in the background. A massive advantage for EVs as this sort of refuelling is not practically possible with any other energy source.

 

This is incredibly exciting! Thanks for sharing. I hadn't heard anything about it but sure makes sense. If they can do it with phones, why not cars?

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44 minutes ago, murphaph said:

In fact there is a standard for wireless (inductive) charging of EVs that has been developed by several manufacturers under the auspices of the Society of Automotive Engineers (more commonly known as the SAE, often seen on bottles of engine oil, SAE-30 for example). Major companies like Nippon Denso are actively working on this technology. In future your EV will charge just by parking it in the supermarket. You will not plug anything in. It will all happen in the background. A massive advantage for EVs as this sort of refuelling is not practically possible with any other energy source.

 

That sounds a little incredible. Inductive charging struggles to charge a toothbrush or mobile phone overnight. A car needs 10+k times more power. The magnetic fields needed would be significant. In others words its possible technically if we accept dangerously strong magnetic fields. The kind that pull your keys out of your pocket. 

 

The developers of NMR had quite a few accidents involving those magnets. They ended up having a strict: no metal protocol.

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