Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

1,342 posts in this topic

On 2/7/2023, 10:42:49, yesterday said:

Not to mention, what a decent EV costs, well I guess he means a Tesla, which when buying a new one, will cost at least 47,000 Euro, which is well above the average cost of an ICE car, and an 11,000 euro ICE car, has a greater range than a Tesla and can be re filled in 7 mins.

Again this?

Let's debunk this again.

The average new car price in Germany is above 34k€.

The cheapest Tesla costs 45k. 

Umweltbonus dropped, but you still get 6750€.

Then you get 10 years without road tax. That's worth 1500-2500€. Let's go with 2000€.

That's 36k€.

 

Then you save money on gas and on maintenance. Not to mention ICE cars will start steep devaluation now. Nobody will give you decent money for your ICE in 5 years.

The cheapest Tesla is a bargain and cheaper than the average german car.

 

So let's stop with this tesla-for-rich argument.

Let's perhaps start with "I can't do math so EVs look expensive".

 

 

Quote

Also its forgotten, that currently EV's are for people who like to stop every 3 hours to charge, get some fresh air, drink a coffee, while they are not for people who will drive 6 or 8 hours without stopping.

 

Do not get me wrong, EV;s have advantages, its just they are not for everybody 

Again the corner case argument?

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On 2/7/2023, 12:26:40, keith2011 said:

You maybe right though there is still much the same noise from the tyres. I did "hear", however, that there is a legal requirement that EVs must use a noise maker to warn pedestrians that they are approaching. I seems we have become over reliant on our ears in determining if it is safe to cross the road.

Maybe an EV owner could confirm this?

That sound they make is on mid range frequencies, meaning a simple window can block most of it. ICE motors make very low frequencies, hard to block.

Another thing is this sound will probably be discontinued in a few years. When the whole city is quiet, you can hear the tire noise without the warn noise.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

Then you save money on gas and on maintenance.

 

I have to disagree on the gas savings. It is costing more and more to charge our EV when we are not in our garage. I don't think it will get cheaper but we didn't buy the car to be cheap and we would not have bought it without being able to charge it at home.

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1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

Again this?

Let's debunk this again.

The average new car price in Germany is above 34k€.

The cheapest Tesla costs 45k. 

Umweltbonus dropped, but you still get 6750€.

Then you get 10 years without road tax. That's worth 1500-2500€. Let's go with 2000€.

That's 36k€.

 

And here we go with the average price bollocks argument again.

I doubt if the "average" person spends 34k on a new auto, then you even say the cheapest Tesla cost 2k more than the average price of a car in Germany.

The average wage in Germany is 44k but I and millions of others don´t earn anywhere near that.

Also if I go into a pub with 4 friends and 10 pints are drunk that night then on average I drink 2 pints even if I don´t touch a drop, that´s how bollocks averages are.

1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

Then you save money on gas and on maintenance.

And here we go with the TCO bollocks again.

The problem with TCO on an EV is you have to find the money upfront or be able to afford the leasing or credit for a 30-40k auto. Don´t forget MM is not talking about the cheapest EV because they´re not "decent".

MM and many others cannot get it through their heads that some people like me can afford €100 a month credit for a car and then once per year can find the €300 or whatever for a service but cannot afford €200 a month credit for a car even though once per year we´d only have to find €100 for the service.

 

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38 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

I have to disagree on the gas savings. It is costing more and more to charge our EV when we are not in our garage. I don't think it will get cheaper but we didn't buy the car to be cheap and we would not have bought it without being able to charge it at home.

This is a temporary peak due to Ukraine. Energy prices are returning to normal since December.

As an example, a few months ago a new electricity home contract would cost well above 0.5€ per kWh. Now it's at 0.35, which are values before war.

 

Tesla supercharger prices dropped from 70c to 47c in the last 2 months. Diesel is around 40-45% more expensive right now. So yes, you save money.

And compared with home charging, diesel is 100% more expensive.

 

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2 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

That sound they make is on mid range frequencies, meaning a simple window can block most of it. ICE motors make very low frequencies, hard to block.

Another thing is this sound will probably be discontinued in a few years. When the whole city is quiet, you can hear the tire noise without the warn noise.

I was not at all concerned about noise disturbing me at home, double glazing blocks all traffic noise short of emergency vehicles with there sirens on. On the other hand it would be very nice on a summer night to be able to throw open the windows on the street side of our apartment without having to suffer the noise and fumes, so come on 2035. Hope the tyre noise is enough though, I was saved by the engine noise and managed to jump out of the way of a diesel van that ran the red light on a pedestrian crossing I was using.:huh:

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4 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

This is a temporary peak due to Ukraine. Energy prices are returning to normal since December.

As an example, a few months ago a new electricity home contract would cost well above 0.5€ per kWh. Now it's at 0.35, which are values before war.

 

Tesla supercharger prices dropped from 70c to 47c in the last 2 months. Diesel is around 40-45% more expensive right now. So yes, you save money.

And compared with home charging, diesel is 100% more expensive.

 

1 Liter of Diesel equals about 10 kWh of energy. According to https://www.clever-tanken.de/tankstelle_liste?lat=49.9781033959883&lon=9.9689146686247&ort=97450+Arnstein&spritsorte=3&r=5

the price of Diesel is about €1.7/l. So 1 kWh of Diesel costs about 17 Cents. Even if you assume that EVs are 50% more efficient than Diesel cars their fuel cost is higher.

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I wish MikeMelga and his groupie would shut the hell up regarding these stupid Telsa and EV cars. 

You know the ones that only cost 40k that do 400km but don't charge it above 90% and don't let it go below 20% so that 300km(if it not cold then its less).

Charge it up in 30mins(during which time you can walk around freezing ur nuts off) after searching around for half an hour to find a charger, probably have to drive extra km on each long trip to follow the chargers. Sounds like one big pain in the arse. 

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8 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

Again this?

Let's debunk this again.

The average new car price in Germany is above 34k€.

The cheapest Tesla costs 45k. 

Umweltbonus dropped, but you still get 6750€.

Then you get 10 years without road tax. That's worth 1500-2500€. Let's go with 2000€.

That's 36k€.

 

Then you save money on gas and on maintenance. Not to mention ICE cars will start steep devaluation now. Nobody will give you decent money for your ICE in 5 years.

The cheapest Tesla is a bargain and cheaper than the average german car.

 

So let's stop with this tesla-for-rich argument.

Let's perhaps start with "I can't do math so EVs look expensive".

 

I can't do math so EV's look expensive. 

 

I'm driving the ICE car that I bought new for under 12k ca. 5 and a half years ago.  My road  tax is 48€ per year.  Over 5.5 years I've spent almost 2500 on yearly inspections, wiper blades, lightbulbs etc.  So if we said my ICE car were now worthless, I will have spent 224€ per month to own that car.  However, it isn't worthless.  Should be fine for a few more years which will bring my monthly cost down.

 

Had I bought a Tesla, I'd have a car note of 500+ for years and we aren't even at inspections and wiper blades yet.

 

Btw, none of my friends is in the market for a 30k+ car.  I even know people who drive a roller in the summer and hitch rides in winter.  You tell them 36k is a good deal.  They'd probably laugh... or cry.

 

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9 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

And compared with home charging, diesel is 100% more expensive.

Yep, everyone has a solar anlage at home, so they get free electricity.

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There's some shady math going on in this thread. Let's compare my 2023 Cupra Born to a somewhat equivalent 2023 Golf 8 diesel.

 

My winter consumption has been around 18kWh/100km for mixed city/autobahn. Add 10% charging losses and you get 19,8kWh/100km. Although mine is parked in an underground garage, doing a lot of short city trips hammers the consumption every time it needs to heat up the battery so I expect my summertime consumption to be at least 25% less.

 

A Golf 8 diesel's winter fuel consumption is frequently reported to be 5-6l/100km. I can link many sources for this value upon request.

 

Berlin's current diesel price is 1,769 €/l - and my Cupra card charging rates for all 2023 are:

 

0,37€ /kWh AC

0,46€ /kWh DC

0,35€ /kWh DC Ionity

 

In the city I charge with AC and on the autobahn I use Ionity, so even with charging losses it's costing me about 7,33€ /100km (19,8kWh/100km x 0,37€/kWh)

 

Whereas a Golf 8 is around 8,97 - 10,60€ /100km.

 

So it's still 22-44% cheaper for me, not to mention I got 400€ selling my CO2 credits for 2022 and will likely get 300-350€ for 2023.

 

Who knows what'll happen in 2024 though!

 

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12 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

I keep saying the solution is to force companies with a parking lot to offer charging spots to employees. That would probably cover 50% of car commuters.

That would leave many chargers for others. New buildings already have to provide charging spots in their garages since a few years.

Street chargers are not the solution. Supermarkets should be forced to provide charging spots.

This should cover almost all daily drivers. 

 

This is just another cheap mans solution.

 

Basically EV's are too expensive for most people!

 

When you force supermarkets to provide free charging for EV's, what you are really saying is that ICE car users should pay extra to buy the goods there because some one has to pay for these free benefits, which is just another tax on ICE cars, EV's should stand on there own feet, if they cannot make make a EV at a cost most people can pay then they should die by normal market rules.

 

How about killing the umweltbouns for a car maker, if an EV car maker is making more than 15 % margin, at the moment Tesla are keeping there prices high, to keep a good >25 margin, and expecting the Government to reduce the price of a new EV, how it that fair ? Its ridiculous. Kill the umweltbouns for EV's making such a margin. Sure that will affect the Tesla share price, which I know would be of concern to you.

 

Again, fair market rules, if charging EV's is offord for free, then ICE cars should get free tanking, at the company. Lets keep this system fair for everybody.

 

Basically EV's should die on normal economic rules, its only because of the subsidies, that some people will buy them, and even then a 11,000 euro ICE is cheaper and can travel further before a re charge, which is also faster.

 

Sure the average price is about 35K for a new car, but this figure is very misleading, lots of company cars buy on this actual price and more, then you have the very expensive cars, Ferrari etc. But the average private buyer, probably pay much less than 35K.

 

I do not know why you never get this point about EV's,  cheap arguments about EV's is just not true  without subsidies.  and of course you want more subsidies

 

Ev's are for cheap people who do not want to pay the real cost of owning a car. 

 

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Re. average car prices in Germany - yes, 34-36k is definitely the norm:

 

2022-auto.jpg.105ef8e65704a6a2e71c87690e

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/auto-kaufen-verkaufen/neuwagenkauf/preissteigerungen-neuwagen-werden-immer-teurer/

 

 

As of 2022 about 75% of new cars sold to private individuals are close to the average or above.

 

Check my post to see a more granular breakdown:

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/391601-electric-vehicles-in-germany-all-the-ins-and-outs/?page=17#comment-3922064

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21 minutes ago, circuits said:

 

 

So it's still 22-44% cheaper for me, not to mention I got 400€ selling my CO2 credits for 2022 and will likely get 300-350€ for 2023.

 

Who knows what'll happen in 2024 though!

 

 

But this argument is flawed longer term, currently the Government adds about 70 %  tax to a litre of ICE fuel, and not much tax for EV fuel, again more subsidies 

 

The Government needs this money to spend on schools and defence etc etc etc. If Ev's get to mainstream, they will be taxing them just as much, because the Government needs the money to spend on many things.

 

Sure short term the Government will offer, short term sucker lower taxes/subsidies, but once there are enough of them, all that will disappear and you as an EV owner, will just be paying more to operate the car as you would as an ICE car owner.

10 minutes ago, circuits said:

 

As of 2022 about 75% of new cars sold to private individuals are close to the average or above.

 

 

Thank you for that clarification

 

I have to question thou

 

Smallest car as of July 2022 is 22,000 Euro, I think is not correct

 

https://www.dacia.de/modelle/sandero/preise-versionen.html    is 12,350 Euro 

 

Maybe this is an average figure for small cars, but it you can definitely  buy a cheap new car much cheaper than that average price

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3 hours ago, LeonG said:

Btw, none of my friends is in the market for a 30k+ car.  I even know people who drive a roller in the summer and hitch rides in winter.  You tell them 36k is a good deal.  They'd probably laugh... or cry.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Krieg said:

What a surprise, rich people buy most of the new cars.

 

Oh come on, there are lots of people who are not in the market for a 30k+ new car whether that is a 35k ICE or a 35k (taking into account tax breaks etc.) EV. What has changed???

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EVs take away the option for the people buying 11k new cars or used beaters.

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9 minutes ago, yesterday said:

The Government needs this money to spend on schools and defence etc etc etc. If Ev's get to mainstream, they will be taxing them just as much, because the Government needs the money to spend on many things.

 

Much the same argument was made by the tobacco industry and smokers in response to restrictions on smoking! It is not about tax it is about trying to keep people and the world healthy!

 

9 minutes ago, yesterday said:

 

Sure short term the Government will offer, short term sucker lower taxes/subsidies, but once there are enough of them, all that will disappear and you as an EV owner, will just be paying more to operate the car as you would as an ICE car owner.

 

 

You could well be right about that though.:rolleyes:

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16 minutes ago, Krieg said:

What a surprise, rich people buy most of the new cars.

 

Yes, and the average depreciation of a new car within the first 6-12 months seems to be about 24%.

 

Whereas there were almost no EVs immediately available one year ago, I now see there are a lot of low-mileage used EVs for sale that are selling below the new price, even factoring in for the original subsidies.

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11 minutes ago, Krieg said:

EVs take away the option for the people buying 11k new cars or used beaters.

 

I'd say that's temporary until corporations and rental companies transition to an electrical fleet -> I don't see the tax saving /employee prestige /whatever model of buying new cars in bulk and selling them after 1-3 years  as "almost new" going away. That's by the way how I've always bought my cars.. A private person paying €60,000 for a new BMW or Audi is insane in my view.

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