Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

[fraufruit 41,938]

Not defending anything. We have an EV. We have time.

 

Can you agree that they aren't for everybody? 

 

That is all.

 

Who's getting 400 km. on one charge in the dead of winter?

[keith2011 2,572]

2 hours ago, fraufruit said:

Can you agree that they aren't for everybody? 

I can certainly see and agree that EVs are not currently, at least, going to able to suit everybody, however come 2035 new petrol and diesel ICEs will no longer be an option!

Anyone for hydrogen?

[Dembo 493]

7 hours ago, keith2011 said:

Anyone for hydrogen?

 

No. ;-)

 

I think it's a question of adapting. If you take your on the road support monkey as example: start every day with a full charge and maybe that suffices more often than not. If he comes back to base during the day he can always switch to a different car with a full charge and if he needs to stop on the road for 25 minutes every 3 hours that's not necessarily dead time; he probably needs to spend a bit of time per day logging in remotely to do emails etc. anyway and can do that in a charging stop. Turning up 25 minutes later at the client costs the company some money but you have to balance that against the savings from driving electric. 

 

At the end of the day if it's cheaper for the company to do it this way they will, or their competitors will and undercut them. Part of the issue here is that if it is currently cheaper, it's not cheaper enough. It's those that do the most miles that should benefit most from EVs.

 

 

 

 

[jeba 4,345]

What I'm missing in the debate is that you may want to drive to other countries which may not have enough chargers. Or that your EV may not be allowed onto a ferry (only recently a Norwegian ferry line banned them). Switzerland is also considering a ban of EVs because they a worried that there may not be sufficient capacity to generate electricity.

[toBnruG 1,152]

9 minutes ago, jeba said:

What I'm missing in the debate is that you may want to drive to other countries which may not have enough chargers. Or that your EV may not be allowed onto a ferry (only recently a Norwegian ferry line banned them). Switzerland is also considering a ban of EVs because they a worried that there may not be sufficient capacity to generate electricity.

Ironic since their charging network puts Germany to shame.

I've been driving EV for 3 years and in that time the charging network in Germany has barely changed. I like going abroad because it becomes incomparably simpler to charge... France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria... all are putting Germany to shame.

That's why I'm glad my next car, arriving in the Summer, has a range of up to 615km. I drive that distance max 2x per year in Germany, so I have to plan a stop, which is possible. Otherwise I'll just reach my destination and return home without charging en-route. No problems.

 

edit: Switzerland, it seems, is not considering an EV ban per se. They are making considerations for what to do in various emergency scenarios where power stations go offline... in some extreme scenarios they might have to temporarily ban charging of EVs until they get the power back online.

[yesterday 1,979]

I thought we already agreed that if you have to use street chargers, then charging an EV is no cheaper than charging an ICE car, and EV's are much more money than an ICE car.

 

When I drive around Munich, I see lots of cars parked on the street, because the older buildings do not have under ground parking, the only option for these people is not to have a car after 2035, what a wonderful solution. It will cut local pollution and increase the unemployment rate.

 

When I start my ICE start car, I do not have to think about planning where to charge, because ICE cars have a massive range in comparison to EV's and there is currently always a ICE refill station nearby, where ever I go. EV's are great for people who like to plan, which is a very small proportion of the population thats all they talk about when considering a trip.

 

I get it that EV's can do most trip without a problem for a daily trip, but ICE cars generally go on longer trips without refilling. Most people buy a bigger car than they need, so they can go on holiday with it, and make longer trips a few times a year, which does not make any sense. They probably should buy a smaller car and rent a bigger car for the fewer trips that they need a bigger car for. But people just do not think like that, most people want a bigger car for the few long trips they make a year, because its easier, no planning, hiring etc. So when people talk about 1 % of the trips, thats just how people think as you can see with the cars out on the road now. 

[jeba 4,345]

49 minutes ago, toBnruG said:

Ironic since their charging network puts Germany to shame.

I highly doubt that's true for Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Turkey etc.

[fraufruit 41,938]

3 hours ago, Dembo said:

If you take your on the road support monkey as example: start every day with a full charge and maybe that suffices more often than not. If he comes back to base during the day he can always switch to a different car with a full charge

 

This might work for big companies but not for independent one monkey shows. A man with a van won't have a whole fleet of vans.

 

As long as the charging structure keeps increasing, things should be OK by the time ICE's are phased out. We had to wait for a charger for the first time on the Autobahn but were lucky and got one in about 10 minutes. They were all taken. This has made us rethink traveling on Sundays. Has anyone else noticed similar on Sundays?

 

50 minutes ago, yesterday said:

then charging an EV is no cheaper than charging an ICE car

 

This is true. Himself once paid € 50 when he got on the wrong charger - not Ionity. 

 

Some of us are lucky to have at-home charging. This will have to become much more prevalent in apartment buildings, etc. 

1 hour ago, toBnruG said:

That's why I'm glad my next car, arriving in the Summer, has a range of up to 615km.

 

Do tell. Which car are you getting? Sounds exciting!

[toBnruG 1,152]

1 hour ago, jeba said:

I highly doubt that's true for Eastern Europe, the Balkans, Turkey etc.

I've never been tempted to drive to Eastern Europe in any type of car, but that's just me (I would fly). Anyway I was referring to your comment about Switzerland banning EVs (which they aren't). When I drive down the West of Switzerland almost every picnic stop on the Autobahn has 6 - 8 charging stations. In Germany our picnic areas don't even have toilets! They're populated by men pissing in the hedgerows and sure as shit don't have somewhere to charge a car.

 

14 minutes ago, fraufruit said:

Do tell. Which car are you getting? Sounds exciting!

Ioniq-6. Finally a move away from SUV styles, Hyundai's newest Ioniq model achieves ~20% more range than the Ioniq-5 using the same drive train and battery, just by paying attention to the aerodynamics. This is the car I spent the past years wondering why nobody was making.

[keith2011 2,572]

1 hour ago, yesterday said:

When I drive around Munich, I see lots of cars parked on the street, because the older buildings do not have under ground parking, the only option for these people is not to have a car after 2035, what a wonderful solution. It will cut local pollution and increase the unemployment rate.

 

That could be the case if you assume the infrastructure remains the same, however you must admit that already there are fast charging parking places popping up all over the city, do you really think there won't be more done for EV charging as the demand grows?

Also 2 points, firstly it is not possible to fill an ICE with fuel where you park it. it is necessary to travel to a filling station and there is not one of those on every street corner in the city these days so why do you expect to do any different for an EV? Secondly back in the 80s when I first visited New England in the USA pretty much all private and some public open air  parking places were equipped with a power socket, not for EVs in those days but for sump heaters on ICEs, it gets damn cold there in winter. I can't believe it is beyond the ability of cities all over Europe to do something similar, maybe not for fast charging but for topping up overnight. 

[Keleth 9,279]

4 hours ago, Dembo said:

 

No. ;-)

 

I think it's a question of adapting. If you take your on the road support monkey as example: start every day with a full charge and maybe that suffices more often than not. If he comes back to base during the day he can always switch to a different car with a full charge and if he needs to stop on the road for 25 minutes every 3 hours that's not necessarily dead time; he probably needs to spend a bit of time per day logging in remotely to do emails etc. anyway and can do that in a charging stop. Turning up 25 minutes later at the client costs the company some money but you have to balance that against the savings from driving electric. 

 

At the end of the day if it's cheaper for the company to do it this way they will, or their competitors will and undercut them. Part of the issue here is that if it is currently cheaper, it's not cheaper enough. It's those that do the most miles that should benefit most from EVs.

 

 

 

 

Jesus H Christ, can you people not just admit that EVs are not suitable for everyone?

Most people yes but not everyone.

 

1 hour ago, keith2011 said:

firstly it is not possible to fill an ICE with fuel where you park it. it is necessary to travel to a filling station and there is not one of those on every street corner in the city these days so why do you expect to do any different for an EV?

How long does it take to fill an ICE and how long to charge an EV?

That´s the big difference in that scenario.

 

[keith2011 2,572]

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

How long does it take to fill an ICE and how long to charge an EV?

That´s the big difference in that scenario.

 

True but that hardly means it will exclude everyone in a city from having an EV after 2035 if they don't have a parking place in an underground garage with a charger, which was the claim I responded too.

[yesterday 1,979]

9 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

That could be the case if you assume the infrastructure remains the same, however you must admit that already there are fast charging parking places popping up all over the city, do you really think there won't be more done for EV charging as the demand grows?

I expect the EV charging stations to increase a lot in the next years, and I never said they will not either, you are putting words that I did not say in to my mouth 

 

 

Quote

Also 2 points, firstly it is not possible to fill an ICE with fuel where you park it. it is necessary to travel to a filling station and there is not one of those on every street corner in the city these days so why do you expect to do any different for an EV?

 

Sure but if I want to make a longer trip I can fill my ICE car in 7 mins, either the day before or on the way. But my point is people plan more with EV's because the range is not as good, the thing I like about ICE cars is there is less planning ( but bad for the environment), just get in and drive, you will always find a petrol station within 30 miles of your position in most developed places.

 

Quote

Secondly back in the 80s when I first visited New England in the USA pretty much all private and some public open air  parking places were equipped with a power socket, not for EVs in those days but for sump heaters on ICEs, it gets damn cold there in winter. I can't believe it is beyond the ability of cities all over Europe to do something similar, maybe not for fast charging but for topping up overnight. 

 

Must admit I did not hear anything about that for Munich ( it used to get very cold in Munich but not any more ), have you heard it or is it speculation.  But yes it would work, if someone wanted to pay for it just as many other projects could be done.

Also I speculate as well, nothing wrong with that!

 

 

Anyone for hydrogen?

Like the idea, but I think it will be too expensive to produce

Well lets see what happens, maybe the new investment in Green Hydrogen will deliver it a a reasonable price. What I find stupid is that we switch off the windmills at night because we cannot use or store the energy, why not channel this power to make Hydrogen and then use it through the day ?

Its energy for free, because at the moment we cannot store that much electricity 

 

[keith2011 2,572]

3 hours ago, yesterday said:

Must admit I did not hear anything about that for Munich ( it used to get very cold in Munich but not any more ), have you heard it or is it speculation.  But yes it would work, if someone wanted to pay for it just as many other projects could be done.

Also I speculate as well, nothing wrong with that!

Very much speculation but definitely a potential viable solution and as for paying for it, well there ain't many free parking places in the "M" area, residents have to pay for a parking licence and visitors have to buy a parking ticket. The admin infrastructure for paying for it is all in place and the power was there for all those parking ticket automats and fast chargers!

[yesterday 1,979]

11 hours ago, keith2011 said:

Very much speculation but definitely a potential viable solution and as for paying for it, well there ain't many free parking places in the "M" area, residents have to pay for a parking licence and visitors have to buy a parking ticket. The admin infrastructure for paying for it is all in place and the power was there for all those parking ticket automats and fast chargers!

 

yes, of course I know of the parking problems in Munich.

 

I remember about 10 or 15 years ago, I went with my car and parked in the gasteig walked down to tal, to see my bank and came back after 2 hours or so. I had to pay 8 euro parking fee !  Since then I have driven in Munich centre less than once per year, normally to pick up heavy stuff or pick up visitors from the centre. If I go then I use the bicycle or the U-bahn. I always drive away from the city centre.

 

Also Munich is just too full now, always a traffic jam on the ring if travelling at rush hour. Munich has many more people living in it than when I came and the roads are basically the same.  

I know its not fair, but sometimes I wish for limiting the traffic in Munich, it just takes too long to go anywhere at curtain times.

 

I got in the cab of the car transport lorry, couple of years ago, when we got into the first traffic jam the driver just said "Scheisse München", and he is right, there are just too many people and cars in my city.

 

Because its so nice in Munich, everybody want to live heir

 

Munich needs to solve the parking problem, before it puts on street charging stations - and that will be difficult, Munich's old buildings will just become ring fenced with charging stations, which I think is not really practical

 

Sorry a bit of topic.

[theGman 3,516]

I hate the Munich traffic with a passion. Especially as Munich drivers are such arseholes. However, I would say the traffic problems are not caused directly by the locals, rather that the A99 is the corridor for soooo much traffic going between eastern and western Europe. This just clogs up the whole city.

[fraufruit 41,938]

Big city. Lots of traffic. Difficult to find parking.

 

Who knew?

[snowingagain 5,189]

Car drivers complaining about the traffic.

[slammer 877]

43 minutes ago, theGman said:

I hate the Munich traffic with a passion. Especially as Munich drivers are such arseholes. However, I would say the traffic problems are not caused directly by the locals, rather that the A99 is the corridor for soooo much traffic going between eastern and western Europe. This just clogs up the whole city.

Munich is one of the very few cities without a full Autobahn ring. And if you think the A99 is a nightmare, you should have seen the traffic on the B471 back in the day and you could spend all hours of fun trying to get past the traffic light at Etterschlag before the A98 was finished.

Generally I don´t mind the traffic in Munich, as long as you are expecting jams and gridlock during peak hours driving in Munich isn´t too bad and with a Handwerkerausweis I can park on the pavement in a pinch.

My nightmares are from the cyclists and these weird Tretroller things that zoom way too fast and who´s riders are totally oblivious to any other form of traffic.

A Munich cyclist would have a life expectancy of about five minutes on Malta and one day, of this I am sure, I will have a cyclist spattered on the bonnet of my Astra.

[Keleth 9,279]

51 minutes ago, slammer said:

A Munich cyclist would have a life expectancy of about five minutes on Malta and one day, of this I am sure, I will have a cyclist spattered on the bonnet of my Astra.

I´ve said this so many times, when I didn´t have a car I was often in more danger from cyclists than car drivers.

There are the cyclists that ride side by side (especially wonderful when the cycle path is half the pedestrian path), and there is the cyclist that rides on the road because hell I don´t know it´s too inconvenient to use the cycle path. There are cyclists who when the light is red don´t think it applies to them so bump up on the path go through the light then back on the road. There are cyclists who cycle through pedestrian areas because they´re not a car they think they can.

 

Yes I know there are many good and sensible cyclists out there but it seems to be now with the prevalence of ebikes that the bad are outnumbering the good.

 

Nothing at all to do with diesel cars in Frankfurt but there ya go.