Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

[slammer 877]

9 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

Nope. Up till 31.03.2024, you just need to be a Handwerker. So if stopped by the police, you simply point to the tools of your trade that you are transporting in your car and that's it.

It's an automatic exemption for Handwerker and deliveries.

 

Please read the legalese in the "Allgemeinverfügung der Landeshauptstadt München": https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:34fa0db3-ab88-4792-a2d2-69b6bc678322/221222_Ausnahmekonzept.pdf

•  

Our legal weenies read it very closely and we actually need a permit. It is however not my problem to toss around and as I work for the justice I would love to see any uniform try and stop me.

[keith2011 2,579]

4 hours ago, Keleth said:

The big thing with LED is that although more expensive initially they last a lot longer, are you willing to say that for EVs?

Other than the batteries, most likely yes! As I understand it service is much simpler and cheaper, fewer moving parts, there is no complex expensive engine to wear out, the much greater weight may reduce the life of brakes and tyres but they are easily replaceable expendables anyway!

On top of that as long as " currently" you don't have use on street chargers the running costs are much cheaper. If the battery life problem does not continue to improve considerably though and on street charging continues to cost much the same per km as petrol (blatant "overcharging"  imo) then EVs are heading down a dead end!

 

4 hours ago, Keleth said:

This applies to the market for cars over the last god knows how many years but the price hasn´t dropped consistently, yes you get better for your money but the buy price still remains the big obstacle.

You have got to be joking. The last time, many years ago, I got a new car the selling price was about 25K DM,These days  I would struggle to get a similar spec. car for 25K Euro so the price of ICEs has certainly not gone down over the years but have risen pretty much in line with everything else! There have already been some real reductions in the price of Tesla EVs for 2023 and I don't see why once supply starts exceeding demand there won't be more.

[Krieg 14,926]

3 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

You have got to be joking. The last time, many years ago, I got a new car the selling price was about 25K DM,These days  I would struggle to get a similar spec. car for 25K Euro so the price of ICEs has certainly not gone down over the years but have risen pretty much in line with everything else! There have already been some real reductions in the price of Tesla EVs for 2023 and I don't see why once supply starts exceeding demand there won't be more.

 

You have a weird way of looking at things.   Before Covid you could buy a brand new ICE for 7000 EUR.   That was a good price and plenty of families could afford it.    We were already on the way to democratized cars.   But Covid happened and now you will have to pay at least 11000 EUR for a car.   Still doable for plenty of families, but not as easy as it was before.   It is the electric revolution the one taking those chances away.

 

So until Covid ICE cars were really getting cheaper.  Of course premium cars were getting expensive.

[keith2011 2,579]

1 hour ago, Krieg said:

 

You have a weird way of looking at things.   Before Covid you could buy a brand new ICE for 7000 EUR.   That was a good price and plenty of families could afford it.    We were already on the way to democratized cars.   But Covid happened and now you will have to pay at least 11000 EUR for a car.   Still doable for plenty of families, but not as easy as it was before.   It is the electric revolution the one taking those chances away.

 

So until Covid ICE cars were really getting cheaper.  Of course premium cars were getting expensive.

 

I'm not sure what car you are talking about for 7K pre covid or why post covid it has increased in price to 11k and I don't really care. There have always been very cheap cars available and I doubt very much they are any cheaper in real terms today than they were 30 years ago.  I am just happy to see diesel cars (and I doubt any of them only sold for for 7K new) banned from city centres and hopeful for a future of increasingly more non polluting vehicles.

[yesterday 1,979]

dacia santario

 

Der neue Dacia Sandero | Preise und Versionen

 

Essential Version 10750 Euro.

 

If you buy it now its 12 years use you have until then ban on new ICEs comes into effect in 2035, of course you will be able to drive it longer until it breaks apart. 

 

Kriegs point was good and accurate, but also the global chip shortage has had an impact on the number of cars produced and the price you pay for them.

 

and yes they were sold for 7000 Euro!

 

You have already speculated that EV's may fail, if we lose Diesel and petrol on top, it will make problems for the economy.

[keith2011 2,579]

13 minutes ago, yesterday said:

You have already speculated that EV's may fail, if we lose Diesel and petrol on top, it will make problems for the economy.

 

 ICEs will die in 2035 or sooner whether or not EVs may be a dead end technology or not, given the life and cost of the batteries! So we better hope there are viable alternatives by then or we may have to stop dodging those soapbox questions from @Keleth

[Keleth 9,279]

2 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

 ICEs will die in 2035 or sooner whether or not EVs may be a dead end technology or not, given the life and cost of the batteries! So we better hope there are viable alternatives by then or we may have to stop dodging those soapbox questions from @Keleth

Yer yer soapbox.

At least I´m not preaching about EVs while not willing to change too much for the environment.

I´m not prepared to walk 10km to work at 04.30 because there´s no public transport and my ICE is too dirty for Like the environment.

I´m not prepared to spend an extra €50-100 a month on food to buy bio or ethical products because I can´t afford it.

You apparently are willing or able to do this (or you´re just too scared to admit you won´t because it will show you for the hypocrite you are).

Like they say EV owners and lovers are the new vegans.

 

[Keleth 9,279]

5 hours ago, keith2011 said:

There have always been very cheap cars available and I doubt very much they are any cheaper in real terms today than they were 30 years ago. 

There you go again with the "real terms" bollocks.

You do not have a clue, do you?

[keith2011 2,579]

18 minutes ago, Keleth said:

er yer soapbox.

At least I´m not preaching about EVs while not willing to change too much for the environment.

I´m not prepared to walk 10km to work at 04.30 because there´s no public transport and my ICE is too dirty for Like the environment.

I´m not prepared to spend an extra €50-100 a month on food to buy bio or ethical products because I can´t afford it.

You apparently are willing or able to do this (or you´re just too scared to admit you won´t because it will show you for the hypocrite you are).

Like they say EV owners and lovers are the new vegans.

Then what the fuck are you saying?

Preaching that other people, organisations and governments should change while not willing to apparently do anything yourself!

[Krieg 14,926]

Imagine you lived your whole life and you didn't realize what happened around you.

[almafreya 60]

52 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

Then what the fuck are you saying?

 

An except from Keleth's upcoming comment:

 

Well look at you Keith, driving around in your fancy EV, you smug bastard. Mr Moneybags acting all pious and superior just because he can afford an EV unlike us peasants driving around in our dirt-boxes, polluting the air, poisoning children. But you don't really care, do you Keith? Not really. It's all just image for you. Keith-washing, I call it. Waving at other EV drivers like you are in a special little "I care so much about the planet" club. Pretending you care about air quality and the impending climate disaster. You damn hypocrite Keith.

 

[MikeMelga 7,248]

23 hours ago, slammer said:

Of course... All those stops for recharging will leave you rested and fresh.

I stop every 3h, same as if I was driving the Merc. Leave home at 9am, stop for lunch at 12. Then drive 3 more hours and reached my destination.

I guess you never drove a proper EV on a long trip.

[Keleth 9,279]

4 hours ago, keith2011 said:

Then what the fuck are you saying?

Preaching that other people, organisations and governments should change while not willing to apparently do anything yourself!

No I´m more than willing to change but the burden should be shared equally.

For example, car owners pay an extra €20 car tax specifically to fund public transport.

Everyone, businesses, and workers pay an additional 1% tax to make changes needed to help the environment.

Many more ways to raise funds.

We´re told not to use plastic straws etc, recycle and so on yet all the while businesses are being made to follow various guidelines which when they do they write off against tax so we´re paying for that as well.

It´s not as easy as in "I´ve got an EV, I´ve done my bit".

 

 

[keith2011 2,579]

 

3 hours ago, Keleth said:

No I´m more than willing to change but the burden should be shared equally.

For example, car owners pay an extra €20 car tax specifically to fund public transport.

Everyone, businesses, and workers pay an additional 1% tax to make changes needed to help the environment.

Many more ways to raise funds.

We´re told not to use plastic straws etc, recycle and so on yet all the while businesses are being made to follow various guidelines which when they do they write off against tax so we´re paying for that as well.

It´s not as easy as in "I´ve got an EV, I´ve done my bit".

 

Thank you very sensible, I have no disagreement with any of that.

[keith2011 2,579]

7 hours ago, almafreya said:

 

An except from Keleth's upcoming comment:

 

Well look at you Keith, driving around in your fancy EV, you smug bastard. Mr Moneybags acting all pious and superior just because he can afford an EV unlike us peasants driving around in our dirt-boxes, polluting the air, poisoning children. But you don't really care, do you Keith? Not really. It's all just image for you. Keith-washing, I call it. Waving at other EV drivers like you are in a special little "I care so much about the planet" club. Pretending you care about air quality and the impending climate disaster. You damn hypocrite Keith.

 

 

And who the hell are you, some snotty nosed arsehole who knows nothing about me and hasn't even got the courage to post their own opinions but uses the device of speculating how someone else might respond.

For your information I don't own an EV or indeed any other kind of motor vehicle and haven't done so for more than 20 years when I sold my last motorbike. I live in the city centre and some may say I am fortunate that I can use the excellent public transport and my bicycle (more recently an e-bike) to get around but I have to suffer, both at home and when riding my bike, being poisoned by peasants like you driving around in your stinking polluting dirt boxes. So yes I do support EVs, the ban on diesels in Munich and the eventual ban on the sale of ICEs and if you and others like you don't like it you can go fuck yourself.

[almafreya 60]

6 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

And who the hell are you, some snotty nosed arsehole who knows nothing about me and hasn't even got the courage to post their own opinions but uses the device of speculating how someone else might respond.

For your information I don't own an EV or indeed any other kind of motor vehicle and haven't done so for more than 20 years when I sold my last motorbike. I live in the city centre and some may say I am fortunate that I can use the excellent public transport and my bicycle (more recently an e-bike) to get around but I have to suffer, both at home and when riding my bike, being poisoned by peasants like you driving around in your stinking polluting dirt boxes. So yes I do support EVs, the ban on diesels in Munich and the eventual ban on the sale of ICEs and if you and others like you don't like it you can go fuck yourself.

 

I think we should strive for a society where nobody needs to own a car. Design cities around pedestrians, cyclists and public transport that results in cars actually being an inconvenient method of transport.

 

I also live in a city and use a bicycle to travel, and the majority of car trips I see people making here could be made by bicycle, bus, tram etc instead.

 

Replacing ICE cars with EV cars doesn't do anything to solve these problems.

 

That said, I fully support a ban of all privately owned diesel cars in all cities.

 

This channel has many good videos about Urban planning: https://youtube.com/@NotJustBikes

[scook17 247]

10 hours ago, Keleth said:

No I´m more than willing to change but the burden should be shared equally.

For example, car owners pay an extra €20 car tax specifically to fund public transport.

Everyone, businesses, and workers pay an additional 1% tax to make changes needed to help the environment.

Many more ways to raise funds.

We´re told not to use plastic straws etc, recycle and so on yet all the while businesses are being made to follow various guidelines which when they do they write off against tax so we´re paying for that as well.

It´s not as easy as in "I´ve got an EV, I´ve done my bit".

 

As it stands, businesses get a tax write off for buying a vehicle. Let's say a hangover from the automobile lobby.

The tax office recovers this from the employees provided with such vehicles, through charging tax on the value and distance driven.

For the most part these vehicles are leased and eventually go to the second hand market in fairly large numbers.

 

Now whilst a tradesman might well actually need a van to run a small business, and it might be cheaper to purchase a vehicle for a salesman  than pay him to use his own, most of those cars are simple 'perks'. A manager doesn't need a car to drive to/from work, but often they might get one as part of a salary package.

 

The German government dropped the tax paid by the employees to one quarter for EV's vs. ICEs. So regardless of what type of business car user you are, likely you'll be asking the company to purchase EV's for the next lease car, not a diesel. At the end of the lease, these enter the second hand car market. So we will see more and more EV's being available, not just to new car buyers.

 

I think the cost to you and I of funding this through government spending, is worth that outcome.

[optimista 5,840]

11 hours ago, MikeMelga said:

... same as if I was driving the Merc. 

 

What a lovely throw-away pick-up line 

[scook17 247]

On 1/25/2023, 2:21:33, mako1 said:

 

This is the argument made for every regulation the automobile industry has been required to meet.

An example, the US requires airbags, Germany does not. I have yet the see Americans stop driving cars/economy going into the ditch.

The truth is in Germany the auto industry has undue influence on the laws in Germany and Europe.

München is phasing in the rules and will ban non Münchners diesel 4 autos first. If the benchmarks are made, they won't do any more regulations. (The problem is there is not really much chance of enforcement).

If people vote for parties that promise to clean up the air, these things will happen. The actual damage from poor air quality is usually more of an issue than theoretical damage the economy claimed by a group of industries that are constantly crying the sky will fall...

Also, certain diesel 4 autos without particle filters have a grün plakatte and are exempt from the current ban but will be banned in the future (Lupo 3L) which is a shame.

 

I wonder what is being done about wood burning stoves which emit black smoke

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/27/worst-london-air-pollution-in-six-years-as-home-fires-burn

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/27/wood-burning-stove-environment-home-toxins

 

Seems they generate more harmful pollution than diesels. 

[jeba 4,347]

Farriers are missing on that list. Scandalous!