Diesel cars banned in Frankfurt

[Krieg 14,919]

1 hour ago, mako1 said:

Also, certain diesel 4 autos without particle filters have a grün plakatte and are exempt from the current ban but will be banned in the future (Lupo 3L) which is a shame.

 

The Lupo 3L gets a special treatment because it is a "Three Liter Car", that's the 3L in its name.   It has a small engine and it was super efficient for its time, the Lupo was produced from 1999 to 2005.  The Three Liter Cars was a program created by the government to incentivize the production of small efficient cars, they were called Umweltautos (environmental cars).      The mega star of the program was the VW Lupo 3L, you can't then 4 years later take away everything and give them a yellow sticker.

 

More info (In German):  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niedrigenergiefahrzeug

[Shenandoah 93]

Krieg,

 

Just to further clarify the Lupo 3L:  The 3L refers to the amount of fuel used per 100km, not the engine size.  The Lupo 3L has a 1.2L turbocharged diesel engine.  

 

S. 

[MikeMelga 7,240]

9 hours ago, Krieg said:

Plus ICEs are not dead yet, hybrids are giving new life to them.  

The only reason Hybrids still sell in decent numbers is because of company car tax. As soon as it ends (already did in Netherlands and other countries), hybrids die.

[fraufruit 41,930]

Hybrids have been selling in decent numbers to private people for many years beginning with the first Prius.

 

[MikeMelga 7,240]

In Europe for the past 5 years the majority is for company cars. Just check the garage of any company.

 

And the people who used to buy Prius for the eco argument have moved on to true eco-cars, i.e. EVs.

Prius (non-plugin) was more polluting than equivalent european and asian petrol cars. It only made sense in the US landscape.

[fraufruit 41,930]

Yes, I was speaking of the U.S. My bad.

 

I rented a very nice Ford hybrid over there some years ago. Thought if I lived there, I'd buy one.

[Keleth 9,279]

10 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

I said a new ICE, 40K may buy you an EV but for example it won't buy you much of a BMW SUV and and many other ICE vehicles on the market. When you consider the huge loss of resale value currently and possibly even worse in the future of an ICE compared to an EV its a no brainer!

And he said the people who buy new ICEs do it because of the 40k cost of an EV.You never said anything about BMWs or SUVs so I´m not sure where you´re coming from with your argument.

Yes the TCO is probably less from an EV than an ICE but in many people´s cases that doesn´t come into play.It´s the same with many things in life in that you can´t afford it now then you´re left with cheaper stuff that in the end costs you more.Vimes Boot Theory.

22 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I just can't figure where you are coming from or heading to when you post such apparently opposing views in two consecutive posts! Is the banning of new ICE sales in 2030 not one of those a massive changes we need?

I´m saying we all know the world is heading down the fucked up path but how many people are actually able or willing to do much about it.

How far are YOU prepared to go, are you willing to drastically alter your lifestyle?

22 hours ago, keith2011 said:

And this:-

 

People aren´t buying EVs in droves because they´re so fucking expensive.

Everyones first love Tesla makes massive profits (Ask MM he´s always raving about their profit margin) yet their cars are extortionately priced so no excuses that the tech to build them etc costs more (It does for now in the case of ICE manufacturers retooling to build them but that will pay off)

[keith2011 2,571]

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

And he said the people who buy new ICEs do it because of the 40k cost of an EV.You never said anything about BMWs or SUVs so I´m not sure where you´re coming from with your argument.

I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of new ICEs on the market place that cost more than 40K so why are they still selling? Certainly not because the buyers can't afford the 40K for a new EV!

2 hours ago, Keleth said:

I´m saying we all know the world is heading down the fucked up path but how many people are actually able or willing to do much about it.

How far are YOU prepared to go, are you willing to drastically alter your lifestyle?

 

I still don't get your argument you say governments need to make big changes but when they do you you complain that it is the common people who must bear the brunt and pay or not in the case of EVs and then preach that everyone must drastically change their lifestyle and accept higher prices for things. There is no logic there!

Quote

Everyone knows the problem, but we the "common" people cannot do a great deal to change it. It needs massive changes at govt and commercial levels which is almost impossible and it needs the public to accept greater costs for things, and more inconvenience, basically changing everyones lifestyle.

 

[Keleth 9,279]

7 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of new ICEs on the market place that cost more than 40K so why are they still selling? Certainly not because the buyers can't afford the 40K for a new EV!

 

Compare a 40k ICE to a 40k EV.

If you can afford the 40k for a new car then resale value isn´t going to worry you be it ICE or EV.

7 hours ago, keith2011 said:

pay or not in the case of EVs

We have the choice at the moment but come 2035 we won´t have that choice anymore. We just need to hope that the 2nd hand market in EVs is flourishing and they´re cheap.

7 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I still don't get your argument you say governments need to make big changes but when they do you you complain that it is the common people who must bear the brunt and pay

Because we´re being made to bear the brunt of it, industry and commercial are not, although they´re by far the greater polluters. We have to save their profits by making us pay more for stuff rather than sharing the burden.

How much extra tax are you willing to pay to provide public transport to make it a viable alternative to people driving in cities?

How much extra are you willing to pay for your everyday items to enable businesses and their shareholders to keep their profits in line, because there is no way they´re going to reduce profit for becoming environmentally friendly?

How much tax are you willing to pay to invest in continually trying to find new battery technology, yes better than fossil fuels but still nowhere near "clean"?

 

 

[keith2011 2,571]

53 minutes ago, Keleth said:

Because we´re being made to bear the brunt of it, industry and commercial are not, although they´re by far the greater polluters. We have to save their profits by making us pay more for stuff rather than sharing the burden.

How much extra tax are you willing to pay to provide public transport to make it a viable alternative to people driving in cities?

How much extra are you willing to pay for your everyday items to enable businesses and their shareholders to keep their profits in line, because there is no way they´re going to reduce profit for becoming environmentally friendly?

How much tax are you willing to pay to invest in continually trying to find new battery technology, yes better than fossil fuels but still nowhere near "clean"?

 

You should try climbing down from your soapbox it seems the lack of oxygen up there is effecting your ability to think logically!

[Krieg 14,919]

8 hours ago, keith2011 said:

I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of new ICEs on the market place that cost more than 40K so why are they still selling? Certainly not because the buyers can't afford the 40K for a new EV!

 

I assume you are not a car person if you are asking this.  The current EV market is divided in two, first there is Tesla that has all the great technology in batteries, battery management system, electric motors, software, and not really great clima control but they are still ahead of the others (heating is the Achilles of all EVs), but when it comes to the car itself, there are lot of quality problems like panels misaligned, and the interiors are not great.   Then you have the other side, the traditional makers, they have great cars because they know how to built them, but their EV technology is behind and their software is crap.   So a person who usually buys a 40k or 60k car would look at EVs and will think:    A Tesla of the same price is really a compromise, the interior is for peasants.   Then the person will look at the equivalent EV in his favorite brand and for a similar car instead of 40k or 60k, the price would be 70k or 100k, and then the EV technology is deficient.   There are brands like Hyundai and KIA trying to close the gap with the IONIQ and EV6s, but they were never seen as a premium brand, so a car person will think:  60k for a Hyundai crossover?  Are you crazy?

 

The perfect EV would be to take a Tesla drivetrain and software and pass it to Mercedes, BMW or VW and ask them to build the rest.  But such thing do not exist and if it existed it would be expensive.

 

53 minutes ago, Keleth said:

We have the choice at the moment but come 2035 we won´t have that choice anymore. We just need to hope that the 2nd hand market in EVs is flourishing and they´re cheap.

 

I am very pessimistic here, for this to happen we will need some new technologies that make batteries dramatically cheaper.   The price of the battery in an EV can be more than half of the retail price of the car, so swapping the battery in an old car might become financially complicated.   We can already see this effect with the tons of old Nissan Leafs with unusable batteries that are being trashed because it makes no sense to replace their batteries.    Current technology is a bit better than what happened to those Leafs, but still I don't see current EVs having a life longer than 12 to 20 years without battery replacement.   And cheap second hand cars is the only way plenty of people have access to cars, if that option is taken away it will be horrible.

[yesterday 1,979]

33 minutes ago, keith2011 said:

 

You should try climbing down from your soapbox it seems the lack of oxygen up there is effecting your ability to think logically!

 

You have to think some people do not have much money.

 

Some people buy a second hand ICE car for several hundred or a thousand or 2 Euro's because they do not have 40K in the bank to spend. 10 year old car etc, with  a TUV. Of course other users on here, will think they could not drive a 10 year old car and choose a more expensive one, but then they have the money for it.

 

I agree with krieg, that it if costs 10 or 20 K to  replace the battery after 12 years, these kind of people buying old ICE cars will not be able to afford to drive a car anymore, or take other measures to cut spending in other areas.  That may impact the economy if it happens to enough people.

 

All Keith is saying, is that yes he wants clean air ( through Government laws ) but it needs to be done in a way, that it does not mess up the lives of people who cannot afford the more expensive EV's way of life. I hate the smell of diesel too. But at some level, I do not want a lot of poor people to become worse off, because they cannot afford the EV way of life. 

.

[keith2011 2,571]

2 hours ago, yesterday said:

You have to think some people do not have much money.

 

Of course I do, I don't have 40k in the bank either when I last got a new car it was via a leasing contract, so basically paying by instalments like most people! There will always be people who can't afford a new car or indeed any car. At present EVs are expensive and in short supply which in the near term means both new and used will not be coming down in price much. That will change!

The same was  said regarding the ban on incandescent light bulbs, "LEDs are 10 times more expensive and the energy saver florescent ones are bad for the environment because they contain mercury" "We shouldn't be asking the common people to pay more". Yet here we are a few years later with LED light bulbs that never seem to need changing and consume up to 90% less power than their equivalent incandescent versions. Not only that but with such a big market place resulting from the ban the price has dropped considerably and the options and features available now far exceed those of the old technology. I suggest we will see much the same kind of change in the EV market!

I do share your concern regarding battery life and replacement cost but that should not be a show stopper for the ICE ban although ultimately if a solution is not found EVs could end up as a dead end but alternatives will be found.

[slammer 876]

Company bosses passed a brick today when they realized, that from next wednesday on our technicians cant drive into Munich in their diesel cars...

[PandaMunich 16,562]

3 minutes ago, slammer said:

Company bosses passed a brick today when they realized, that from next wednesday on our technicians cant drive into Munich in their diesel cars...

Munich rules:

Nope, Handwerker are exempted until 31.03.2024.

So you would only have a problem starting with April 1st, 2024 (no, that's not a joke).

Source: https://www.hwk-muenchen.de/artikel/diesel-fahrverbot-in-muenchen-mit-ausnahmen-fuer-das-handwerk-74,0,11077.html

• Far-reaching exemptions for Handwerker
   

  Handwerker vehicles without a Handwerker parking permit
  For stages 1 and 2, i.e. until 31 March 2024, a general exemption (indicated by signage) applies to residents, Handwerker and delivery traffic.
  
  In the FAQs of the City of Munich under point 5, this general exemption is specified for customer and delivery traffic within the Low Emission Zone.
  This general exemption for the affected tradesmen and delivery traffic is thus valid until 31 March 2024 without the need for separate applications from your side.

  
  Note
  "Delivery traffic" is understood to be the business transport of goods when these are delivered to tradespeople or customers. Delivery traffic also includes journeys by tradesmen as well as construction vehicles that are used as workshop vehicles or for transporting tools or materials and absolutely have to be on site.

  An exemption permit is not required due to the signage until 31.03.2024.
  
  Handwerker with a Munich Handwerker parking permit may also drive into the designated extended environmental zone even after 31.03.2024.
  Craftsmen without a craftsman parking permit valid will - if they want to drive in the Low Emission Zone after 31.03.2024 - have apply for an individual exemption permit (muenchen.de/infos/umweltzone-muenchen.html).

[MikeMelga 7,240]

10 hours ago, Krieg said:

  A Tesla of the same price is really a compromise, the interior is for peasants.  

For peasants? LOL. I prefer my Tesla's interior ANY TIME to a Mercedes! I should know, I have both!

Better AC, better music, better seats, better usability, better SW, more space, glass roof, no cluttering. 

People are still attached to the image that "luxury" is well stitched leader. Don't be fooled. 

Luxury is doing an 8h trip on a Tesla and coming out as fresh as in a 1h with a Mercedes.

[slammer 876]

2 hours ago, PandaMunich said:

Munich rules:

Nope, Handwerker are exempted until 31.03.2024.

 

But only if you have applied for a permit, even with a Handwerkerausweis, you still need the permit, costs (I think) 60 Euros p.a. 

Guess who hasnt applied for said permit..

[slammer 876]

1 hour ago, MikeMelga said:

For peasants? LOL. I prefer my Tesla's interior ANY TIME to a Mercedes! I should know, I have both!

Better AC, better music, better seats, better usability, better SW, more space, glass roof, no cluttering. 

People are still attached to the image that "luxury" is well stitched leader. Don't be fooled. 

Luxury is doing an 8h trip on a Tesla and coming out as fresh as in a 1h with a Mercedes.

Of course... All those stops for recharging will leave you rested and fresh.

[PandaMunich 16,562]

1 hour ago, slammer said:

But only if you have applied for a permit, even with a Handwerkerausweis, you still need the permit, 

Nope. Up till 31.03.2024, you just need to be a Handwerker. So if stopped by the police, you simply point to the tools of your trade that you are transporting in your car and that's it.

It's an automatic exemption for Handwerker and deliveries.

 

Please read the legalese in the "Allgemeinverfügung der Landeshauptstadt München": https://stadt.muenchen.de/dam/jcr:34fa0db3-ab88-4792-a2d2-69b6bc678322/221222_Ausnahmekonzept.pdf

• Pursuant to § 40 para. 1 BImSchG in conjunction with § 1 para. 2 of the 35th BImSchV, by virtue of this general exemption, motor vehicles with diesel engines may also enter the environmental zone with emission class Euro 5/V and worse for the following purposes:  
  ...
  1.2. journeys by the following vehicles or journeys for the following purposes  
  ...
  b. Handwerker vehicles whose use as a workshop vehicle or for the transport of tools and materials is absolutely necessary, limited until 31.03.2024. The prerequisite is also that the craftsman's business is listed in the Craftsman's Code ( Annex A or B ) or it is a comparable activity (e.g. maintenance service, installation of large equipment). 

Most types of Handwerker are not listed in Anlage A and B of the Handwerksordnung (the professions listed in there are a bit antiquated, when did you last see a "well builder", "wooden she (clog) maker" or a "fabric painter" at work?).

Common professions are missing, for example the gardener (Gärtner).

--> most Handwerker will have to go the "comparable activity" route.

 

Anlage A der Handwerksordnung: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/hwo/anlage_a.html

• Number     
   1 Bricklayers and concrete workers
   2 Stove and air heating fitters
   3 Carpenter
   4 Roofer
   5 Road builders
   6 Heat, cold and noise insulators
   7 Well builders
   8 Stonemasons and stone sculptors
   9 Plasterers
  10 Painters and varnishers
  11 Scaffolders
  12 Chimney sweepers
  13 Metal workers
  14 Mechanic for surgical tools
  15 Car body and vehicle mechanic
  16 Precision mechanic
  17 Two-wheeler mechanic
  18 Refrigeration plant fitter
  19 Information technician
  20 Motor vehicle technician
  21 Agricultural and construction machinery mechatronics technician
  22 Gunsmith
  23 Plumber
  24 Plumber and heating engineer
  25 Electrician
  26 Builder of electrical machines
  27 Carpenter
  28 Boat and ship builders
  29 Ropers
  30 Bakers
  31 Confectioners
  32 Butchers
  33 Opticians
  34 Hearing aid acoustician
  35 Orthopaedic technician
  36 Orthopaedic shoemaker
  37 Dental technician
  38 Hairdressers
  39 Glaziers
  40 Glassblowers and glass apparatus makers
  41 Mechanic for tyre and vulcanisation technology
  42 Tile, slab and mosaic layers
  43 Stone and terrazzo masons
  44 Screed layer
  45 Tank and apparatus builders
  46 Parquet layers
  47 Roller shutter and sun protection technicians
  48 Wood turner (ivory carver) and wooden toy maker
  49 Cooper
  50 Glass finisher
  51 Sign and illuminated sign makers
  52 Interior decorators
  53 Organ and harmonium builders

Anlage B der Handwerksordnung: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/hwo/anlage_b.html

• Section 1
  Crafts not subject to licensing
  Number     
   1 Not applicable
   2 Deleted
   3 Deleted
   4 Not applicable
   5 Watchmakers
   6 Engravers
   7 Metal formers
   8 Electroplaters
   9 Metal and bell founders
  10 Precision toolmakers
  11 Goldsmiths and silversmiths
  12 not applicable
  13 not applicable
  14 Model maker
  15 not applicable
  16 Wood sculptor
  17 not applicable
  18 Basket and wickerwork maker
  19 Tailor
  20 Textile designers (embroiderers, weavers, lace makers, trimmers, knitters)
  21 milliners
  22 (omitted)
  23 Sailmakers
  24 Furrier
  25 Shoemakers
  26 Saddlers and fine bag-makers
  27 omitted
  28 Millers
  29 Brewers and maltsters
  30 Wine cooper
  31 Textile cleaners
  32 Candlemaker
  33 Building cleaner
  34 not applicable
  35 Precision optician
  36 Glass and porcelain painters
  37 Gem cutters and engravers
  38 Photographers
  39 Bookbinders
  40 Print and media technologists (printers, screen printers, flexographers)
  41 not applicable
  42 not applicable
  43 Ceramists
  44 not applicable
  45 Piano and harpsichord makers
  46 Hand-pulled instrument maker
  47 Violin maker
  48 Bow maker
  49 Metal wind instrument maker
  50 Woodwind instrument maker
  51 Plucked instrument maker
  52 Gilder
  53 not applicable
  54 Wood and building preservationist (wall preservation and wood impregnation in buildings)
  55 Undertaker
  56 Beauticians

•  

   

  Section 2
  Crafts similar to crafts
  Number     
   1 Ironworkers
   2 Building drying trade
   3 Floor layers
   4 Asphalt layers (excluding road construction)
   5 Joint fitters (in building construction)
   6 Not applicable
   7 Pile driving (pile driving in hydraulic engineering)
   8 Concrete drillers and cutters
   9 Theatre and scenery painters
  10 Manufacture of custom-made wire frames for decorative purposes
  11 Metal grinder and metal polisher
  12 Metal saw sharpeners
  13 Tank protection companies (corrosion protection of oil tanks for combustion plants without chemical processes)
  14 Vehicle recyclers
  15 Pipe and sewer cleaners
  16 Cable layers in building construction (without connection work)
  17 Wooden shoe (clog) makers
  18 Wood blockmaker
  19 Stave carpenter
  20 Wooden ladder maker (special production)
  21 Trough hewer
  22 Wooden hoop maker
  23 Wood shingle maker
  24 Fitting of standardised prefabricated building components (e.g. windows, doors, frames, shelves)
  25 Brush and paintbrush makers
  26 Men's outerwear ironers
  27 Decoration sewers (excluding window dressers)
  28 Spotted carpet makers
  29 (omitted)
  30 Theatrical costume makers
  31 Pleated stitchers
  32 (omitted)
  33 Fabric painter
  34 (omitted)
  35 Textile hand printer
  36 Artisan stuffers
  37 Alteration tailor
  38 Glove maker
  39 Carrying out simple shoe repairs
  40 Tanner
  41 Offal butcher (Kuttler)
  42 Ice-cream maker (with distribution of ice-cream with usual accessories)
  43 Meat cutters, boners
  44 Appreteurs, decorators
  45 Dry cleaners
  46 Carpet cleaners
  47 Beverage line cleaners
  48 not applicable
  49 Make-up artists
  50 not applicable
  51 Lampshade manufacturer (custom-made)
  52 Piano tuner
  53 Theatre sculptor
  54 Props makers
  55 Umbrella makers
  56 Stone printer
  57 Drum makers

[Keleth 9,279]

19 hours ago, keith2011 said:

 

You should try climbing down from your soapbox it seems the lack of oxygen up there is effecting your ability to think logically!

Ok.

We should just accept things and not complain. You´re the sort of person govts and commercial interests love.

Nicely done on sidestepping the questions btw.

16 hours ago, keith2011 said:

Not only that but with such a big market place resulting from the ban the price has dropped considerably and the options and features available now far exceed those of the old technology. I suggest we will see much the same kind of change in the EV market!

This applies to the market for cars over the last god knows how many years but the price hasn´t dropped consistently, yes you get better for your money but the buy price still remains the big obstacle.

The big thing with LED is that although more expensive initially they last a lot longer, are you willing to say that for EVs?